April 3, 2007

You Both Suck


OK. That’s it. I reached the extent that I really want to throw up. Every day I say I am not going to read the news in the morning but eventually I do, of course to make sure my family survived another day. But when news like McCain saying “there are a lot of good news” top the headlines, it makes me not only want to throw up but to have this feeling of absolute disgust and anger for the rest of the day or maybe for the rest of my life.

When do these freaken republicans stop spitting their poison? When are they going to stop using the war and the Iraqis’ blood for their own propaganda? McCain visiting Baghdad?!! To do what? Hello!!! Why is he visiting now? Of course, because of the presidential elections. Isn’t that a shameful act? I mean if Americans believe in his crap, we don’t.

“You read every day about suicide bombings, kidnappings, rocket attacks and other terrible acts. What we don't read about and what is new is a lot of the good news -- the drop in the murders in Baghdad, the establishment of security outposts throughout the city ... the deployment of additional Iraqi brigades to Baghdad," McCain said. ©Reuters

Oh yeah, good news? What good news? My father might need a surgery in his spinal cord if the physiotherapy doesn’t work soon. Does McCain know that because of the war, the hospital of Physiotherapy is not functioning as it should be? Does McCain know that the only hospital that has the equipments and professional doctors is in Kadhimiya hospital, which is at the other side of lawless Baghdad? Does he know if my father doesn’t do the therapy, he might become a disabled person? Does he know how hard and almost impossible for him to go to the hospital? Does he know that my father cannot trust Iraqi forces checkpoints because they might be militias or insurgents? Does he know that my 17-months-old niece wakes up in the morning crying because she is imprisoned in the house all day? Does he read the news like this or this or this? I guess he doesn’t because he visited Shorja Market! My ass. He was accompanied by dozens of armed bodyguards and US troops. If he really thinks that there is a progress, why did he have to go out like this?

Disgusting Republican.

Democrats, wait. Don’t be so happy. You also suck. I am not a huge fan of US troops but I do believe that the withdrawal you are calling for is a big mistake. Of course, it is. Do you think invading a country and leaving it destroyed is something that history will be praising you for? Don’t you think that what your country did is very important to fix? But that’s just me thinking like this. You also proved you are no better than the Republicans. You proved how selfish you are. You didn’t even discuss the issue of the people of a country your country destroyed with tanks and stupid no-future plans.

And finally, it’s our fault that we had this feeling of trust and confidence in you. Alas! I really thought you are the leaders of the world. But it seems that you guys pay Hollywood hell of money to keep your ass covered. You beautify your image through movies which you use as propaganda to tell the world you are the “Jesus” of earth. Even Jesus has lost hope in you.

baghdadtreasure@gmail.com

Written by Bassam Sebti on Tuesday, April 03, 2007

96 Comments:

  1. When will it occur to you to also blame the 8th century minded muslim whores who are doing the vast majority of the killing? You know, like those wonderfully devoted ass-wipes that blow up school girls. There's a lot of blame to go around, but just once I'd like to see some directed at the actual human debris who are killing the majority of civilians, and preventing the rebuilding of Iraq. Iraq has all the potential of being as stable and prosperous a state as Jordan or Saudi Arabia.

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  2. Anonymous,

    You are the typical American who doesn't want to admit all the mistakes that we done by his country.

    There's a lot of blame to go around, but just once I'd like to see some directed at the actual human debris who are killing the majority of civilians, and preventing the rebuilding of Iraq.

    If you read my archives when I was in Iraq, you would know whom we blamed. And fyi, these terrorists did not exist in Iraq. Your stupid lawmakers and president's war brought them to our country. You are more responsible for this destruction because terrorists are terrorist and criminals. The blame is on those who say they "are not terrorists" and those who said we'll do this and that but did nothing but bringing sorrow, grief and destruction.

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  3. "You are the typical American who doesn't want to admit all the mistakes that we done by his country."
    Treasure, my Iraqi friend, I would urge you to reread my post. Nowhere did I attempt to deflect responsibility from either my country or yours. Instead, I simply urged you to direct more of your anger at those that are currently killing and destroying. Finger pointing and playing the blame game only embolden our common enemies. Imagine if we were more united in the fight for Iraq, rather than the status quo. As I am new to your blog, I promise to take some time and read your archives. Thanks for listening. Asaalam Aleikum.

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  4. Instead, I simply urged you to direct more of your anger at those that are currently killing and destroying.

    I know what you mean. The main aim in this entry is not to put a blame rather expressing disgust of what US officials are doing. I am frustrated because of my father illness which came when McCain came saying "there are a lot of good news". I can't endure such lies, anonymous. Yes, I am no longer in Iraq but I am in daily contact with my family and friends. They are slowly dying and McCain comes and says things are improving. Please do not let these people wash your brains. You Americans lost a lot when you trusted Bush. Don't do the same mistake. Don't you remember all Bush's lies? Don't you see the outcome? Do you want to trust McCain who's simply doing what Bush was doing but through a different context?

    Sorry if I was being rude. I am in a very bad mood because all my beloved ones are suffering a lot.

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  5. BT, the Democrats believe in their hearts that the American people voted them into office so that they would get of Iraq.

    "Get out of Iraq" means different things to different people. To some it means "today if not yesterday" no matter what the consequences are to Iraqi people (Edwards, many dems in Congress). To others it means artificially impose our solution on Iraq by partitioning it (Biden) and make concessions to the negative forces in the region. To others it means stay in large numbers, but ignore sectarian killing (Clinton).

    None of the dems have a plan to fix Iraq, only to get our troops out and let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out, with Iraqi civilians in the middle as usual. Small exception for Clinton, who says she would pursue AQ but turn our backs on sectarian killing.

    So McCain's visit was a response to evaporating support from the American voters. It was an effort to drum up American support for something else, especially the "surge" which is probably our last hope of seriously trying to help Iraq stabilize. He was showing that Americans aren't just over there getting shot and blown up by a nation that wants America out of the way to shoot and blow up each other in earnest after we leave.

    I haven't heard a single person show any respect to him for his visit, and very few people commend him on his firm stance about stabilizing Iraq. So the terrorists, criminals, militias, and insurgents can continue to salivitate over Iraq's future.

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  6. It was an effort to drum up American support for something else

    … which is by deceiving them by saying that “there are a lot of good things”!


    I haven't heard a single person show any respect to him for his visit

    Because it’s a BS. He was there neither for the Americans nor for Iraqis. He was there to do some marketing for his presidential elections and that’s why I used the word “disgusting”. He is using the war and the suffering of both Iraqi people and US troops to be the president. What kind of person he is?!

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  7. me: "It was an effort to drum up American support for something else"

    BT: "… which is by deceiving them by saying that “there are a lot of good things”!"

    But there are a lot of good things. I'm not saying everything is good- of course not. I'm also not saying this because McCain said it. But we are getting indications that some things are getting better in Baghdad and elsewhere. The insurgents & terrorists are mounting their own counter-surge, so it's a tough fight but at least we are in it.

    BT: "He was there to do some marketing for his presidential elections and that’s why I used the word “disgusting”. He is using the war and the suffering of both Iraqi people and US troops to be the president. What kind of person he is?! "

    McCain's stance on the war is a political liability in the current climate here, not an asset. A few months agon he was being interviewed (I forget where) and the interviewer said his stance on Iraq could lose him the election. His response was "I'd rather lose an election than lose a war". He's actually been very consistent in his position, he's criticized Bush's handling of the war, offered alternatives, but always seen the importance of winning it for the US and for Iraqis.

    Do I sound like a McCain supporter? Well I'd support him over any of the Dems so far, but I haven't decided if he's my favorite Rep yet.

    Don't forget Pelosi is in Syria right now, too (not that she's running for pres though).

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  8. Don't kid yourselves, anyone, everyone.

    The plan was thus:

    Good cop, bad cop.

    Republicans get into Iraq and the Dems get out of Iraq.

    World Opinion: Wait, you broke Iraqi, fix it.

    US: Sorry, mate, this is a democracy and the will of the people was that we get out.

    World Opinion: Democracy?

    US: Oh yeah, we the people voted Bushco into office and we supported him on Sept 12 when he launched his crusade.

    We kept supporting him even when he raped Abeer.

    But the Dems got Congress and well, they are cowards, but heck y'all this is democracy.

    And the people have spoken.

    World Opinion: Yes, the people have spoken. So if the Repubs stayed in power they would have fixed Iraq?

    US: Oh yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

    And that's all she wrote. The plan was to always, always, always destroy Iraq and leave it in a state of disarray.

    Why?

    Because a united, strong and fully-armed Iraq is a threat to Saudico, Bushco's wicked witch of the east.

    Because a united, strong and fully-armed Iraq would have ALWAYS been a threat to Israeli territorial aspirations.

    Because a united, strong and fully-armed Iraq would have pumped so much oil the price would be around $25 a barrel.

    Because a united, strong and fully-armed Iraq would have switched to the Euro.

    And on and on and on ...

    Thank you BT, your anger and words resonate.

    God Bless your father and inshallah bil shifa2 il 3ajil.

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  9. TAI, it sounds like you want us to stay & fix it? That seems opposite of every time I go to your blog & you're cheering on the resistance that's trying to wreck it (and kill a few of us too).

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  10. And fyi, these terrorists did not exist in Iraq. Your stupid lawmakers and president's war brought them to our country. You are more responsible for this destruction because terrorists are terrorist and criminals.

    I hope one day Americans will finally understand this. I am stunned that the idiots that support Bush do not understand that he has created all of these problems! Here in American there are still many that want to reward the arsonist for bringing his water pistol to the fire.

    Idiots...

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  11. centfla: "I hope one day Americans will finally understand this. I am stunned that the idiots that support Bush do not understand that he has created all of these problems! Here in American there are still many that want to reward the arsonist for bringing his water pistol to the fire."

    Does a terrorist bear any responsibility for his actions? You make it sound like Bush compells them to slaughter Iraqis in marketplaces.

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  12. Does a terrorist bear any responsibility for his actions? You make it sound like Bush compells them to slaughter Iraqis in marketplaces.

    Yes of course, but we started this fire when we invaded. It is Bush's fault that this country is in Civil War. Certainly the participants in this war are responsible for their actions.

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  13. You shouldn’t be surprised. This all goes into the propaganda to prepare for a deadline for the withdrawal. I wrote about this three months ago. You can read it here

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  15. centfla: "Yes of course, but we started this fire when we invaded. It is Bush's fault that this country is in Civil War."

    Bush was only prepared for "best case" scenarios, true, and it's taken a long time to get through the missteps and move ahead. None of this has been helped by the insurgents and their terrorist allies of convenience, though.

    24, one of the '04 Presidential Debates was held at my university. Pretty serious security there, too. At least the Iraqis were able to talk to McCain. Maybe he took away something constructive.

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  16. You make it sound like Bush compells them to slaughter Iraqis in marketplaces.

    Sure he does. These terrorists vowed to take revenge from America anywhere on earth. So normally, they found it pretty easy to do that in Iraq since Americans are in Iraq. And of course, they found it pretty good for them to get rid of their other enemy: the Iraqi Shiites.

    Centfla, you are absolutely right in this.

    I hope one day Americans will finally understand this.

    They won’t! Mark my word. I mean, Americans went through a lot of wars but never learned the lesson from them. They keep repeating the same mistake over and over creating all this hatred against them allover the world. Do you think that “death to America” slogan came out of nothing?

    You know, the problem is Americans do not care. I speak for what I am seeing here. I am not talking about blog readers who are unfortunately 10 percent compared to people who don’t read the news. People here care about their lives only. They don’t care about my father who might be disabled because it doesn’t hurt them. It doesn’t affect them in anyway.


    Omar,

    What a coincidence! We discussed a story like this in one of our classes where we were talking about the US propaganda in relation with the war in Iraq.

    CMAR,

    Are you telling me what is happening in my country? Who the hell you are to give such assessments by the time you are not Iraqi and you have never been to Iraq. Are you implying that you know about my country better than I do? Take your soccer ball and play somewhere else. There are a lot of improvements!!! My ass.

    One day, you will surely decide whether the America soldiers in Iraq are despoilers or helpers. But I realize that many Sunni Arabs feel the same way: "The Resistance has a moral right to kill American soldiers AND the Americans have an obligation to stay there and keep the Shi'a militias for purging us from Iraq." Well, that's totally irrational and you can't have it both ways. Either the surge is making things better for Iraqis or the Americans will leave.

    What kind of crap you are saying here?!!!! Who is talking about the US soldiers? I am not discussing this issue here. I know very well that the US soldiers are doing their jobs despite the issue of me liking that or not. Don’t try to deviate the subject to make it about the troops. I am talking about this republican freak. So either stick to the subject or get out of here, which I usually prefer.

    TAI,

    Thanks for your support for my father.

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  17. Here is how "things are better":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6516155.stm

    Iraqi figures estimate civilian deaths in violence across the country rose by 13% last month, despite the security crackdown in Baghdad.

    Data compiled by several ministries put civilian deaths in March at 1,861 - compared with 1,645 for February.

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  18. me: "You make it sound like Bush compells them to slaughter Iraqis in marketplaces."

    BT: "Sure he does. These terrorists vowed to take revenge from America anywhere on earth. So normally, they found it pretty easy to do that in Iraq since Americans are in Iraq. And of course, they found it pretty good for them to get rid of their other enemy: the Iraqi Shiites."

    BT! So all I have to do is "vow revenge" and I'm absolved of all responsibility for mass murdering men, women, and children?

    Well OK... so I'm so mad that Bush hasn't ratified Kyoto that I'm gonna go blow up an American shopping mall. Err, ahh, actually I won't do it myself... I'll just brainwash & recruit dumbass Canadians to do it for me, and finance and train them. Why not? It's Bush's fault, not mine.

    And since I'm off the hook, I'll just co-opt an otherwise legitimate religion and use it as a tool. Budhism, say. And despite having no authority (or training) in Budhism, I'll just issue edicts like I do.

    C'mon, BT.

    Seriously, I hope your dad's OK. Can he stay somewhere closer to his treatment?

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  19. Ever wonder why Hollywood movies ALWAYS have happy endings? I have traveled the world and found that while many outside the U.S. are disgusted with endless American optimism, we still cling to our utterly predictable heroic endings. Many think it is blind and naive if not just idiotic. But I think this stubbornness is the most powerful and unique force the American culture has to offer. Since you are in the U.S. now you must be able to sense what I am talking about.

    My friend, I love Iraq and I deeply respect Iraqis, but I don't agree that America brought terrorist to your land. YOUR culture help invent and perfect this form of murder while cheering on the Palestinian genocide bombers. YOUR government brought the wrath of the Ayatollahs when it invaded Iran and killed one MILLION people. YOUR society's racism and oppression of MILLIONS created the death squads that murder in the streets. YOUR leader earned the fear of the zionists when he rained scuds on Israel. YOUR army angered the Arabs when it invaded Kuwait. YOUR Saddam brought you death from the Saudis when he moved his army onto their peninsula across their border.

    I am not saying this because I think revenge is deserved or that it is your fault - just that it is not all ours. And I already know from your writings that you agree. But can you honestly still say that America cannot admit her mistakes? I see mistakes and terrible news repeated and reported day after day! Yes, we made mistakes and many Americans just plain suck - you are right there too! But telling us over and over that we are wrong no matter what we do is pointless and just insane.

    Please don't push America away! Please let us continue, Republican or Democrat, to try, as pathetically as we can, to help. If you reject both parties and policies who will be left, the Greens!? Our countries are NOT the best of friends right now but we seem to be the only ones you have left. The rest of the world does not seem to care about Iraq so America needs your optimism and you need ours. We thrive on hope and I think deep down you do too. That is why McCain is optimistic.

    American need her foolhardy optimism. Hope fuels our lives. That is why terrorism is the weapon of choice against us and all other democracies - it is designed to crush hope in all forms. But the reverse is true too! If we remain hopeful the evil tactic WILL fail. Please help us to destroy terrorism with YOUR hope.

    I know I am asking the impossible because it is so hard on you and the other Iraqis, but it is also so important not to lose track of who our common enemy is - the terrorists that are murdering Iraqis and Americans - and preventing your father from receiving the care he so desperately needs.

    I am so sorry to hear about your father's poor health and I hope with all my heart he gets better. Please let us know what you think can be done.

    K

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  20. Treasure of Baghdad,

    This was an excellent entry. Here's the truth on the McCain visit:

    http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/world/Viewdet.asp?ID=9286&cat=a

    Iraqis see it for the propaganda stunt it was.

    As for your anger, I can well understand it. When the US first went in in 2003, I coudn't sleep because I was boiling inside. Things in Iraq actually have turned out worse than I feared.

    I'd just like to finish by saying that while I agree 100% that the US should fix what they have broken, the problem is in interpreting the concept of "fixing". "Fixing" to some people means another ten years of the neo-con utopia that Iraq has been choking on until now.

    Let the invader go home first. Second, generate an Iraqis-only consensus. Thirdly, start demanding compensation, or at the very least all the Iraqi moneys that were stolen / embezzled by the US and the corporations it sent there.

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  21. "I mean, Americans went through a lot of wars but never learned the lesson from them. They keep repeating the same mistake over and over creating all this hatred against them allover the world."

    A very interesting comment from an outsider. I'll try to clarify where you're wrong. When we entered into the Revolutionary War, we learned we had no option but to win. Our independance was our goal. When we entered World War 1, we learned we had to win in order to keep the Kaiser from taking over Europe. In World War 2, after being attacked by Japan, we learned that we had to win in order to keep the Nazi's from taking over Europe and the Imperial Japanese from controlling Asia. In Korea, at the behest of the United Nations, we prevented the North Koreans from over-running the fledgling democracy in the south. We learned that an armistice was better than giving up and accepting failure. Ask most Koreans if they'd rather live in a free society or worship at the feet of Kim Il Jong. In Vietnam we attempted to keep the communists from taking over South Vietnam. We learned that failure has serious consequences and that when popular opinion is allowed to distract from an otherwise noble mission, we can and will lose. In Gulf War 1 we learned that overwellming strength will win. In the Iraq War we're learning that failure cannot be an option, no matter what mistakes were made in starting the conflict. A free and prosperous Iraq depends on that.
    What we've learned over the last 200 years is that other countries will always hate us. But, we've also learned that when we enter into a conflict, we must succeed.
    Many more people have benefited from our "mistakes", than not.

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  22. To the American's that support Bush how can you hope to have any friends when you keep trying to quell American fears with talk like;

    "We are fighting them over there so we will not have to fight them over here?"

    The Iraqis live in Over There! how do you think they should respond to that kind of talk?

    "They will follow us home when we leave Iraq

    Again, so ridiculously insensitive to what they are dealing with! There were no bombings in downtown Baghdad until we were there, there were no Civil War fighters until we stirred this up. We are responsible for all of the horror that is going on over there.

    CMAR ii - it is magnificent that the Kurdish sector has been able to rise above the petty violence that plagues much of Iraq. And it is wonderful that the south has been much less violent than the central part of the state. But do I need to draw you a map of the former "No-Fly Zones"? We have been responsible for safety in those regions for 15 years for crying out loud.

    The reason that the violence is greater in Baghdad is because the fighters are drawn there because we are their targets and because of the less homogeneous a society than the other parts of Iraq. That always happens in the mega city of a country. no one but Bush supporters are surprised by this eventuality.

    I am an American. I spent four years in the Marine Corps. I am proud of many of the things about my country and her people. But the war in Iraq is a disaster that we created - period. Bush wanted his Falklands style victory and allowed his handlers to rush into Iraq, a country his own intel did not include in the 45 nations of the world that harbored AQ. He did not study the effects of invading a country that never attacked us. He did not study the effects of a war which had no specific aims. He did not study the idea of occupation.

    Bush blew it, and he owns it. His credibility will pay the price in the US forever. And unfortunately, the people that elected him - US - will pay the price abroad for decades.

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  23. Thanks for the comment T of B. I have 2 nephews the same age and my only concern is the busy streeet half ablock away. But hey, cheap rugs in Baghdad.
    I have also moved my operation over to www.poorsancho.com I added your link if that is ok?

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  24. CMAR ii,

    It was a huge mistake of me to let you comment on my blog again. You are unwelcome here. I deleted all your comments and will never let you spit your poison again on this blog.

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  25. Hi Poor Sancho,

    Thanks for adding me to your blogroll. I'll add yours too.

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  26. there is no amount of "planning" that could have stopped it.

    it is sentences like these that make my blood boil.

    the Bush Pentagon put all its chips on the Iraqi people.

    that is a total lie. they put their chips on the cpa, they never displayed trust in iraqis, entrusted them w/jack s, and wasted billions of dollars and resources


    There are a lot of improvements: including that the Shi'a militias have (for the time being) been brought heel in Baghdad.

    really? i just read yesterday about 25 bodies on the streets of baghdad w/bullets in their brains. where is the news articles that claim this? it sounds like some drummed up propaganda.

    None of the dems have a plan to fix Iraq, only to get our troops out and let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out

    lie

    one of the 'narrow' exceptions..

    (1) To conduct targeted operations, limited in duration and scope, against members of al Qaeda and other international terrorist organizations.

    the republicans don't have a plan to 'fix' iraq either, beyond halliburton and giving contracts to all their cronies which is what they always do.

    But, we've also learned that when we enter into a conflict, we must succeed.

    that is wishful thinking, nothing we have 'learned', in fact, the bozos at the pentagons idea of 'succeeding' is writing some gushy propaganda story and announcing constant 'optimism'. our professional civil servants have been stripped from the government replaced by private contractors w/ties to the gop. so we have not learned HOW to succeed, we just think we should.

    Many more people have benefited from our "mistakes", than not.

    in your dreams maybe. this is no justification. our idea of benefitted might not be someone elses. i noticed you completely left out all our glorious regime change cia operations that have left gazillions dead from deathsquads all over the world. spare me please. maybe we should ask a country before we decide to 'help' them in the future.

    Shall I present as evidence Iraqi bloggers whose blogs dispute your post at every point?

    sure, if you want to expose another propaganda tool of the paid variety.

    If I believed what you claim to believe I would agree with Sunni Arabs that they should be killed on sight.

    another attempt to frame? you can't lump all sunni arabs into one category.

    here's the deal w/the propaganda. the outcome of these stories are probably written before the trip. one of the popular freaks on the right, michelle malkin, recently went to iraq to report on all the 'good news'. naturally she saw progress everywhere. this has been covered by the left blogs, much of her 'evidence' was lies. the last 2 days they started some story claiming michael ware, the cnn reporter who told the truth about the streets of baghdad, was heckling mc Cain (an official said) at the press conference. the rumor spread like wildfire w/call from the right to have him fired. the only glitch was the press briefing was videoed and there was not a peep from ware.

    there are huge think tanks that constantly work on framing the story, from abu g, to deathsquads, to sunni shia references, to is it or is it not a civil war. the american public is fed a constant stream of framing and all this framing comes from very coordinated think tanks. clearly in involves blogs. you can always spot them, they speak in the same voice w/the same agenda, the same certainty, the same defense, an the same goals.

    the problem w/the US staying in iraq is 'america' is not running 'america's' agenda. think tanks are. sure we can pull troops out, or decide to leave them. but either way the goal will be the same. so much of our government is outsourced to these corporations, the communications, the 'reconstruction', the drafting of your oil bill, your constitution, they are all connected to eachother thru companies like lockheed and exxon mobil. america cannot remain the world superpower w/out controlling iraqs oil. iraq in chaos is primarily an image problem for think tanks.

    i know you want the US to remain, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth it.since the presents of US troops things have gotten worse, somehow iraqis have to fix the violence themselves otherwise you will have america permanently running your affairs, that little embassy in iraq was not built for a limited war, it was built for the long term goal of american global supremacy via iraqs oil.

    Let the invader go home first. Second, generate an Iraqis-only consensus. Thirdly, start demanding compensation, or at the very least all the Iraqi moneys that were stolen / embezzled by the US and the corporations it sent there.

    yep

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  27. BT, i had not read your comment 1:09 comment before my last post or i wouldn't have included some of my responses to you know who, and kudos to you for your action.

    also, i am very sorry about your father. very. please tell him he is in my prayers.

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  28. "in your dreams maybe. this is no justification. our idea of benefitted might not be someone elses."
    Anne, you are so right.We should have minded our own business in WW1, my grandfather wouldn't have been exposed to poisin gas, and Europe would've turned out much better. We should've minded our own business in WW2, my Dad wouldn't have been exposed to the horrors he witnessed in the south Pacific, and I'm sure Europe and most of Asia would both be wonderfully progressive. We should've minded our own business in Korea, my uncle jack wouldn't have seen the atrocities committed by North Koreans,and the entire Korean peninsula would currently be living under the glorious leadership of the "Dear Leader".
    Anne, you seem to really hate this country and spend an unusual amount of time denigrating it. Try being appreciative of the freedoms you have, warts and all, sometime.
    BTW BT, I think it was a mistake banning that other poster. Blogs get pretty boring when only like-minded people are permitted to post. I enjoy the spirited back & forth. But that's me.

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  29. me: "None of the dems have a plan to fix Iraq, only to get our troops out and let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out "

    annie: "lie

    one of the 'narrow' exceptions..

    (1) To conduct targeted operations, limited in duration and scope, against members of al Qaeda and other international terrorist organizations."

    Annie, do you know the difference between "international" and "domestic" terrorist organizations? the language should make it clear which one the dems care about. They have no interest in helping Iraqis.

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  30. Anon,

    If you have noticed the comments of people who disagree with me in this comment page. I banned that person because all his comments and critiques are not polite. I disagree with RhusLancia and K but I didn't delete banned them from posting because they are expressing their opinions in a very civilized way without using insulting expressions directly or indirectly.

    I banned that person along with another one a long time ago because they stormed my blog with nonsense and insults and unfortunately, I let him back thinking he became a respectful person but he didn't.

    And by the way, I disagree with what you have just posted but I am not going to delete it because I like the way you expressed yourself. Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and comment on them.

    Regards.

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  31. Many more people have benefited from our "mistakes", than not.

    this just sounds to me like another form of saying 'trust us'. it is not for us to judge whether all the people who have died in iraq as a result of our illegal 'mistake' is worth it because in our history we have had glorious interventions. listing some good ones claiming i have no appreciation or that i have 'hate' is only a tactic to divert from my point. many many people have been negatively affected by the US and you can start by the genocide of the natives of this great land that i love so much and if you did too you would resent what this administration and their neocon cohorts have done to our freedoms i love so much and some of my relations gave their life to preserve. so perhaps it is you who should "Try being appreciative of the freedoms" you had and start putting some energy behind protecting the ones we have left before the criminals running the executive branch squash whatever freedoms we have left.

    "domestic" terrorist organizations?

    rhus, i noticed you did not acknowledge that what you said about the dems regarding AQ was totally incorrect. some of the other 'exceptions' were training the iraqi troops, and leaving 'security' behind to 'protect infrastructer'. in other words, i am certain they won't leave the bases unprotected, or the green zone, and i would imagine blackwater and titan will still be there plus the 'black psyops' that do target assassination, in other words, they ain't really leavin'.

    now, about those 'domestic terrorists'. you mean like hakim's deathsquads? ok, i know you didn't mean that because we all know, (and anyone who didn't read 24's link should) that we only don't like the militias we don't like. and the terror dished out by the militias we like isn't called terror.

    you mean like the different sides of the civil war (which you don't call civil war because you always post in lockstep to the official think tank version of propaganda what a coincidence!)

    yes, a withdrawl would mean the US would not be taking sides in the civil war (supposedly), except you know they will probably have at least 100,000 'representatives' there. that is just my guess, i really have no idea, but i would not imagine they would leave the iraqi government to run itself. after all, they would still pull the strings, to everything.

    They have no interest in helping Iraqis.

    all that 'help' from the gop has really improved things you mean?

    ReplyDelete

  33. Anne,
    We'll agree to disagree, a lot unfortunately, but I enjoy your candor. You might be full of it in my mind, but I suspect you may think the same of me.

    Treasure,
    You indicated that you disagreed with my previous post: "We should have minded our own business in WW1, my grandfather wouldn't have been exposed to poisin gas, and Europe would've turned out much better. We should've... etc..",
    I'm really curious if in your mind, I am way off base with my (slightly sarcastic) observations.
    Also, I'm relatively new to this whole blog posting thing. How would I go about being identified by a name, like milwaukean, instead of anonymous? I'm enjoying your blog so far and think I'll be back more often. Thanks.
    Asaalam Aleikum.

    ReplyDelete

  34. Maybe we should ask a country before we decide to 'help' them in the future.
    -Annie

    This above all else exposes your fundamental misunderstanding of this war and indeed, American history. We COULD NOT ASKS IRAQIS their honest opinion while Saddam was in power. "100% for Saddam" - umm, no that was not true, WMD, terrorists? No one could know for sure. You cannot ask the population of a country that live under dictatorship how they feel because they are not free to answer. Even Iraqi Americans living in the U.S. could not be openly honest because of fear for their families. The people of a dictatorship do not decide if they go to war, the dictator does.

    That is why America goes to war with dictatorships!

    We have never gone to war with a free democratic nation nor has any other free democracy in ALL WOLRD HISTORY. I doubt you will believe this point but please look into it and you will eventually find that it is true. When the peoples of two nations are able to talk to each other freely there is peace and reconciliation - always.

    Annie, I respect your opinion and your writings very much but I think perhaps you need to travel the world more. Go visit a repressive dictatorship, as I have, and compare their one party personality cult worshiping propaganda to our lying politicians and think tank press releases. I am confident you find that Americans really do have a freedom of thought here that they just don't have under repressive governments. It is this thought control that has lead to most, if not all, of histories wars - not American hegemony. In every culture, nation, and political system leaders tell lies and half-truths to get the power they want, but in America they are just one voice out of many - not the only voice. This freedom is so strongly ingrained into our nation that even George Bush cannot take it away from you. I believe this makes all the difference in the world.

    ReplyDelete

  35. Who gains from the civil war in Iraq? WHO GAINS?? Ask yourself that. Ask yourself! THINK! Just who did blow up the mosque at Samarra? There are Machivellian style war tactics being used against the Iraqis, viz: "divide and conquer".

    ReplyDelete

  36. me: "domestic" terrorist organizations?"

    annie: "rhus, i noticed you did not acknowledge that what you said about the dems regarding AQ was totally incorrect. some of the other 'exceptions' were training the iraqi troops, and leaving 'security' behind to 'protect infrastructer'."

    What I said about the dems, phrased slightly more clearly here, is that they don't give a rat's *ss about Iraqis. You called that a lie, but the text of the Senate resolution was more proof to my point. Al Queda in Iraq, their successor the Islamic State of Iraq, and all of the other market place resistors in Iraq would be classified as "domestic" terrorist groups, especially for a party that just wants to turn their backs on "bush's War". Training Iraqis, fine, that helps a little. But 'protect infrastructer'? you mean:

    "(2) To provide security for United States infrastructure and personnel."

    You accidentally left out the "United States" part.

    The dems just don't give a rat's *ss about Iraqis, annie. Do you need me to quote Reid some? How about if I quote BT from this very post? Regarding the Dems:

    "You didn’t even discuss the issue of the people of a country your country destroyed with tanks and stupid no-future plans."

    Care to disagree, annie?

    ReplyDelete

  37. let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out

    i'm not playing word games w/you rhus. you can try parsing this as domestic or international all you want. my reference to the lie was w/regard to your claim they were leaving AQ to the iraqs, they aren't, but then you know we are not plannig on pulling all the troops out, ever, whichever party is in power. as for defending dems, that ain't my job. but don't pretend that your gop hereos care about iraqis.

    You accidentally left out the "United States" part.

    whoops, here i'll try agian

    in other words, i am certain they won't leave the UNITED STATESbases unprotected, or the UNITED STATESgreen zone

    all better.

    I am confident you find that Americans really do have a freedom of thought here that they just don't have under repressive governments.

    i agree w/you k

    and i would much much rather have a corrupt lying criminal president than a corrupt lying murdering dictator.

    comparing america to more curupt repressive governments is a reliable way to appreciate the benefits of being american. i've traveled extensively btw.

    did you here bush has already made two recess appointments since the senate is on a 10 day vacation? this is a loverly reminder of what the monarch thinks of democracy. this is the way he appointed bolten because the senate refused to give him a pass. the new office the senate has no review on is Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs

    mrs dudley calls herself a 'free-market environmentalist,' who wants to protect the environment through 'market-based incentives.'"

    how refreshing!

    "In her writings while at the center, she argued that the government should keep its big nose out of areas like smog, air bags and energy regulation. She's also big on arsenic in drinking water -- she doesn't mind it so much. She wrote that the EPA should not value the lives of older people as highly as the lives of younger people when making arsenic calculations."

    drip drip, democracy under the bush regime.

    ReplyDelete

  38. Anonymous, 4:15 PM,

    I got what you meant through your comment to Annie and I have to say that I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that if the US had not intervened in WW2, there might have been more disasters allover Europe. BUT, I got this impression from your comment that the US is the savior of the world. I have to disagree here. Look at what happened in Vietnam. What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?! I mean don’t you think hundreds of thousands of people died because of these bombs? Yes, Japan is a developed country now but does it take to use an atomic bomb to do that? I mean these were people, souls! What do their grand children feel now?

    You know, I know very well that American people are peace-loving and they are always supporting the best kind of life for human beings but I think this picture is distorted by the American administration which is taking this reputation down by creating an endless number of enemies. Don’t you think the number of the US enemies have dramatically increased since the war happened? Maybe I am wrong but from what I see and read, I find out that there are people in Europe, Asia and Africa became more critical to the US than before. Maybe your media does not cover that but they should. Oh well.

    It would be really great if you chose an identity for your comments than posting as anonymous. In this way, I could really relate to your comments and so do the other people. You know there are many people post as anonymous which makes it hard to distinguish if these people have already posted before or not.

    It’s very easy. Click on “other” and then choose a name you want to go with and click “publish comment”.

    I am glad you’re enjoying my blog. Basically it’s a place where I can post my own personal point of views.


    K,

    This above all else exposes your fundamental misunderstanding of this war and indeed, American history. We COULD NOT ASKS IRAQIS their honest opinion while Saddam was in power. "100% for Saddam" - umm, no that was not true, WMD, terrorists? No one could know for sure. You cannot ask the population of a country that live under dictatorship how they feel because they are not free to answer.

    Regardless of the fact that you could or could not ask us, we wanted Saddam out. We were unable to endure his dictatorship which unfortunately many people now yearn of because of the insecurity haunting their lives. We were happy Saddam was gone but was next? Terrible mistakes by the US followed which resulted in the current situation.

    Here is the thing, I believe that the US did not really have a good background about the situation in Iraq before the war. They depended on unqualified “Iraqis” like the ones who are in power now using all kinds of oppression to take over the country for their own sects. Secondly, the US invaded a country without putting a plan to control its borders which resulted in the massive movement of the Qaeda foreign fighters to go to Iraq and destabilize it. I guess the Americans should have known from the very beginning that they are target no 1 for al-Qaeda. Thirdly [and I read this in Rajiv Chandrasekarn’s book “Imperial Life in the Emerald City”]: the US appointed Civil Administration during Bremer’s occupation authority depending on unqualified American officials who have never been to the Middle East and spent most of their times googling about Iraq finding nothing on the web, simply because Saddam restricted the internet usage so that no one knows what Iraq looks like.

    This is from Chapter two in the book:

    David Dunford, a retired ambassador who was put in charge of the foreign ministry, was among the fortunate few to receive a briefing packet before his deployment. In it was a four-page memo about the ministry that seemed to Duunford as though it had been written by a summer intern at the State Department. When his requests for more information from State Department went unanswered, he posted a plaintive query for advice on an internet message board frequented by Middle East specialists. The gist of his message, Dunford said, was “Here I am and I don’t have a clue as to what to do.”

    Carney who was given no guidance or information about the Ministry of Industry and Minerals, also spent his afternoons in Kuwait trolling the internet. He found a biography of the Iraqi minister, but little more. He had no idea how many workers the ministry had or how many factories and state-run companies there were.

    This book is amazing. There are a lot of information about WHY things went wrong and what is really happening inside the Green Zone. I really advise you to read it if you have not already. I haven’t finished yet because of my studies but will definitely do. The link for the book is on the blog sidebar along with three other amazing books which I actually completed.

    Go visit a repressive dictatorship, as I have

    OK. I am curious to know where you have been (;

    ReplyDelete

  39. A good portion of the "terrorists" were NOT brought by the Americans but are the worst
    elements of Saddams security forces ... If the most brutal elements of Saddams security services were used to oppress
    Iraqi while he was in power
    (which you admit to as you concurred with "24" that all Iraqi
    were oppressed by Saddam)

    Can we not expect with Saddam not in power these same people would
    now continue to brutalize the
    Iraqi population in order to regain power???

    Or Are you claiming that
    the former regime elements
    only attack Americans

    and that
    all of the bombings directed at civilians are from foreign elements???

    What about the Shia "Death Squads" did Americans bring them
    into Iraq ???
    .... are they ALL Iranian
    ... not a single one Iraqi ???

    Your ignoring the seething
    hatred that existed in Iraq
    under Saddam between factions in Iraq ... this hatred was kept in check through Saddams security
    System ... its ludicrous to suggest
    that Americans are responsable for Iraqi
    factions killing each others civilians.

    However

    a) You are Correct in that
    I have never heard Harry Reid
    Pelosi or Murtha ever take into consideration the plight of Iraqi's
    if a premature American Withdrawal
    is made ...

    b) Michael Ware of CNN who reports
    from Baghdad every day feels
    that the situation would get much worse if Americans pull out too soon... so all you Bush haters
    out there ... is discrediting Bush
    really worth the lives of what could be say 500,000 Iraqi dead !!!

    c) your pal "24" announces that
    SISTANI et al is against
    a major new reconcilliation
    initiative involving the re-hiring of tens of thousands of
    former government employees

    And what do we get from many of the commenters more about
    what Bremmer did three years ago ... as if Sistani would
    have support Saddams entire government coming back 4 years ago ???

    I mean cmon already Maliki
    initiates a proposal that could
    help solve TODAYS problems and
    SISTANI "nixes" it and Bremmers
    name comes up ... this one element
    which can have a huge positive
    effect is PURELY Iraqi - Iraqi
    and should be discussed as such.

    d) McCaine is getting out in the world to gain coverage for his
    presidential bid ... as will many other soon.

    He is a Vietnam Veteran and during these visits he also spends time with the US Soldiers giving them support ... his visit is multi- faceted

    e) McCaine is also trying to build
    American public support for
    more troops and funding as he believes it will cut down on Iraqi
    civilian casualties.

    g) Data suggests that
    overall civilian casualties are down in Baghdad.

    h) Newday article of Last February
    or so indicated Zarqawi was in Iraq the January before American invasion ... Saddam set up the initial contacts between al- queda
    and his security services to do
    exactly what they have been doing
    the last 4 years ...

    i)we are back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
    An Iraqi currently living in the US
    attending journalism school is now
    going to comment about US Bombing
    of Japan as if we should have our soldiers slaughtered trying to invade main island of Japan with ground forces
    i) ask some older Chinese
    and Phillipino about
    WW2 era Japan ??

    ii) 10's of thousands of people were dying in Japanese internment camps
    during WW2 therw was no way of knowing the all around Human cost of invading Japan by ground forces
    prolonging the war.

    iii) People seem to think That
    Japan attacked US only
    ignoring completely the huge
    death toll of the Chinese and other Asians

    j) Vietnam has nothing to do
    with Iraq ... never has never
    these historical analogies are fodder for "analysts" people are being killed now bringing up Vietnam will not help Iraqi civilians today
    Putting pressure on Sistani to moderate his position and face
    the reality of Iraqi society
    can
    k) There are no easy answers
    no 5 step recipe which will
    yield peace in Iraq quickly
    The Path is going to be slow
    but it involves supporting the central government as long as that
    government show clear signs that it
    wants national reconcilliation

    l) Please inform me why Bush doesn't want 25 a barrel oil ...
    Exxon - Mobile would love to buy
    Iraqi oil for 25 a barrel

    ReplyDelete

  40. Ok ... first we have all these discussions on whether Iraq is in a civil war ... and now we have
    BT blaming Americans for every single bomb attack ... well if its a civil war then why are we to blame ???

    If one of Saddams boys wants to target a Shia marketplace he has free will ... he can or he can not
    ... if a band of Iraqi Shia
    want to pull Sunni out of their
    cars and kill them its their choice ... no one is forcing either side to continue the violence ... I mean its been 4 years now

    The Governing Council is GONE
    BREMMER is GONE
    ALLAWI is GONE
    Jaffari is GONE

    The majority of violence in Iraq
    since Saddams statue was pulled down is undistputably

    al-queada + FRE against Iraqi Shia

    Iraqi Shia + Iranian agents against
    Iraqi Sunni

    And the bastards on both sides target civilians and not each other
    thats the worst part

    Note Bush stated publicly he would withdraw American troops if asked
    by Iraqi Government so email
    the Iraqi parliament to set the deadline if you believe thats the right thing to do ... they have the authority ...its in their hands

    ReplyDelete

  41. BT, I am sorry to hear that your father has a serious medical condition. I hope that he will be able to get the medical care that he needs! I send my best wishes to you for him.

    I agree with your sentiments regarding the visit of McCain and Graham to the Baghdad market. It was definitely a publicity stunt. Today, Gen. Petraeus, commanding General in Iraq, who accompanied McCain to the market, said that McCain had really helped the Iraqi economy when he bought a number of carpets there! Well, I wonder how much business the merchants lost that day because of the tremendous heightening of security necessary to make the market safe for McCain to buy his carpets?

    Your point about Democrats who are calling for a rapid withdrawal of American troops is a valid one. I do not agree with their position. There is still a lot of work to be done to improve the security situation within Iraq. There is also a lot of diplomacy and reconciliation that must occur before Iraqis are ready to live in peace without American soldiers standing between the different factions. I truly hope that efforts toward reconciliation can more forward quickly!

    ReplyDelete

  42. i totally agree w/BT that it would be helpful if all the anon's choose a name so you would be easier to address and respond to.

    we are back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
    An Iraqi currently living in the US
    attending journalism school is now
    going to comment about US Bombing
    of Japan

    anon, my suggestion to you would be to read the entire thread especially the context in which this, and many other comments of BT's you referenced, including bremmer references, before you try making condemnations such as this!

    hiroshima, vietnam, bremmer were all absolutely relevant to the dialogue from earlier posts.

    k We COULD NOT ASKS IRAQIS their honest opinion while Saddam was in power. "100% for Saddam" - umm, no that was not true, WMD, terrorists? No one could know for sure.

    i agree we could not ask iraqis. in the absence of this, if we truly felt the threat was legitimate, then as a democracy we should have been allowed to judge based on truthful intelligence. that did not happen.

    if there is an absence of intel, we should know. in the case of iraq the evidence was not only lacking, it was contrived, based on false fraud, and the public was lied to, knowingly. this is inexcusable.

    the reason we were lied to is because the PTB KNEW we didn't have sufficient evidence, and that the democratic response would have been negative. so, your response to my comment Maybe we should ask a country before we decide to 'help' them in the future., although correct wrt not being able to ask the population of iraq, did not address the need to be truthful to OUR standards of honesty and judgment.

    truly inexcusable,and interestingly rice is avoiding an oversite meeting w/congress.

    this gross error in foreign policy is the cornerstone of distrust of the american, iraqi and global population. you cannot take a country to war based on lies and fraud. if you are going to ask for our blood and treasure, you need to have honor and honesty because people do not have the will to proceed without knowing they have truth on their side.

    good intention has everything to do w/public opinion. once you loose your integrity it takes a long time to regain it. forgiveness has never been my strong point. it will take america a long time to earn back the trust we once had.

    this is nothing compared to the loss iraq is paying for our failures.

    the lies, coupled with the gross incompetencies of the cpa, plus the policies that led to chaos, the theft or 'loss' of billions PLUS the insane amount of money being made by the families of the designers of war, DO NOT, paint a decent view.

    so, "no one could know for sure"
    is simply not good enough to start a war that could spam decades and ultimately lead to millions of deaths and bring down both countries (US and iraq) in ways we could never recover.

    ReplyDelete

  44. me: "let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out"

    annie: "i'm not playing word games w/you rhus. you can try parsing this as domestic or international all you want. my reference to the lie was w/regard to your claim they were leaving AQ to the iraqs, they aren't"

    It was from your own cite, annie! The dems are playing word games to blur that they don't give a rat's *ss about Iraqis. There is a differnce between domestic and international terrorist groups. Look it up if your don't believe me.

    annie: "but then you know we are not plannig on pulling all the troops out, ever, whichever party is in power."

    The difference is whether we go with Petraeus' plan to protect Iraqi civilians and improve security, or the dems' plans to turn our backs to various degrees and leave Iraqis to their fate.

    me: "You accidentally left out the "United States" part."

    annie: "whoops, here i'll try agian

    in other words, i am certain they won't leave the UNITED STATESbases unprotected, or the UNITED STATESgreen zone

    all better."

    Hmmm, well... if you put it like that you just reinforce my point again, which is as follows and I quote "the Dems don't give a rat's *ss about Iraqis".

    annie, you claim to give a rat's *ss about Iraqis. If you are sincere, why do you think the dems have anything better to offer Iraq?

    annie: "forgiveness has never been my strong point."

    I know this, but that doesn't stop you from asking for others to pursue reconcilliation and dialogue.

    ReplyDelete

  45. Treasure, I think Indonesia's offer of sending peace troops is good. Even from Malaysia would be good.

    I wish our politisans could accept the offer and work on getting it done.

    http://english.people.com.cn/200611/22/eng20061122_324149.html

    ReplyDelete

  46. Treasure please know I send my prayers for your father.

    ReplyDelete

  47. It was from your own cite, annie! The dems are playing word games

    exibit A, rhus's word game

    To conduct targeted operations, limited in duration and scope, against members of al Qaeda and other international terrorist organizations."

    ok rhus, spit it out, besides your editorializing that it is really the gop (who's rightie members cannot seem to contain their muslim bashing) that cares about iraq, what exactly are you implying w/this domestic vs international blathering? are you implying the dem plan for leaving troops in iraq to fight AQ isn't the AQ you mentioned here...

    let AQ, criminals, the insurgency, the militias, and the weak gov't slug it out

    if i don't respond to your new revised excuse, don't take it personally

    ReplyDelete

  48. [bt] “I know very well that American people are peace-loving and they are always supporting the best kind of life for human beings but I think this picture is distorted by the American administration which is taking this reputation down by creating an endless number of enemies. Don’t you think the number of the US enemies have dramatically increased since the war happened?”

    Very good statement, BT. I don’t think American people intrinsically want to hurt other people. But the truth is that the American government uses a very cynical approach to its dealings with other nations. And your statement on US popularity after the Iraq invasion is dead right. American popularity has plummeted faster than the Titanic.



    [anon] “What we've learned over the last 200 years is that other countries will always hate us. But, we've also learned that when we enter into a conflict, we must succeed. Many more people have benefited from our "mistakes", than not.”

    Evidently you forgot to mention the genocide of the American Indians, the massacres of the Filipinos, the massacres of the Vietnamese and all the countless wars and conflicts that you have started or prolonged via CIA action or cynical balance of power politics.

    There’s a reason why people hate your guts, but I don’t really expect you to understand why. That’s why it is pointless to go into the details of all the interventions and wars you managed to start. The only way you will understand what people really think is by receiving a bloody nose. Iraqis are well on their way to making you understand the facts on the ground.


    [k] “We have never gone to war with a free democratic nation nor has any other free democracy in ALL WOLRD HISTORY.”

    Other than with Serbia, of course. Oh, and India and Pakistan, which are normally democracies, fight with each other. And of course, let’s not forget democratic Israel flattening democratic Lebanon. You may want to rethink your statement, which emanates from a decidedly deluded Neo-conservative source. These people should not be trusted.



    [anon] “g) Data suggests that overall civilian casualties are down in Baghdad.”

    You may want to rethink that:

    Iraqi death toll up 15 per cent despite crackdown
    BAGHDAD (AFP)

    “The March death toll in Iraq rose 15 per cent with more than 2,000 Iraqis killed, an official said on Sunday, as insurgents and sectarian militias continue to defy a military crackdown in Baghdad.”

    [anon] “h) Newday article of Last February or so indicated Zarqawi was in Iraq the January before American invasion”

    Correct. In fact he was in Iraq for a lot longer than that, sheltering under the US NFZ in Kurdish territory. Hussein did not trust Zarqawi at all and had issued orders for the Mokhabarat to find and detain him. I guess US protection does have its advantages.

    ReplyDelete

  49. Wow, Do we have a word-war or what? ;-)
    I'll promise to be briefer.
    Treasure, regarding your attraction-repulsion with the news.
    I am the same way. That is why I felt more of a need to pull away (turn toward the Bahais). I still get steamed when I read or hear again some of the stupid comments made by the BIG 3 in the US Admin.

    Detachment is hard to achieve.
    This winter vacation ends for me next week. Over the holidays I have been reading the Qur'an. I have gotten 1/2 way so far. A little bit each night. At this rate I'll finish in June.

    BY THE WAY ANON, whoever or whyever you are "anon." I recommend a daily dose of the Qur'an. Very beneficial for your spiritual growth.

    Cheers to You: Annie, Ruslancia, Bruno.

    ReplyDelete

  50. annie: "exibit A, rhus's word game"

    Text from the Dem's Senate resolution: "To conduct targeted operations, limited in duration and scope, against members of al Qaeda and other international terrorist organizations."

    annie: "ok rhus, spit it out,
    ...
    what exactly are you implying w/this domestic vs international blathering?"

    I'm implying that any terrorist organization that operates within Iraq ("domestic terrorism") is excluded from the "targeted operations, limited in duration and scope" of the senate resolution.

    Yes, this excludes al Qaeda in Iraq. If the dems wanted to confront them, they could possibly include AQI's attacks in Jordan, but the context of the resolution (that you agree with) is to protect American interests. One more time and maybe it will stick: the dems don't give a rat's *ss about Iraqis.

    Do the reps? Slightly more, but for them it also has to be wrapped in our national security interests. They just see more clearly that an unstable Iraq, or one overrun by your heroes, is a threat to the region and to us.

    But I'm neither a dem nor a rep, and I care about what happens to Iraqis.

    At present, an Iraq helped by the US is Iraq's best bet for freedom and stability. And the current mission of US troops is to protect Iraqis from your resistance heroes so that they can build the country faster than your resistance heroes can destroy it.

    ReplyDelete

  51. Cheers, edo... keep yer head down in here: words flying all 'round!

    ReplyDelete

  52. [BT]I got this impression from your comment that the US is the savior of the world. I have to disagree here. Look at what happened in Vietnam. What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?! I mean don’t you think hundreds of thousands of people died because of these bombs?

    BT: No, I wasn't implying that the US is the savior of the world. Although, whenever a disaster occurs anywhere in the world, the US is the first to both respond and be called upon to respond. But that's more because we can. Anyway, I was more or less responding to Anne's complete negativity towards all that is American.
    Regarding Nagasaki and Hiroshima, nobody ever will convince me that they were a mistake. Not only have I researched the topic extensively, but I also have a personal interest too. My Dad was a fighter pilot in WW2, stationed on a tiny island called Ie Shima, and was poised to be involved in the initial invasion of the Japanese islands. The two pronged invasion was expected to generate up to a million casaulties of Allied forces alone. The destruction that would have been brought upon the Japanese would've been even greater. Anyone can debate the use of the atomic bombs as being necessary or un-necessary, but I for one am satisfied with the outcome.
    And Bruno:We've had more than our share of bloody noses in our short history, and we'll get plenty more. We can take it. And, I could go back in history thousands of years, then back to the present, with all kinds of atrocites committed by numerous countries. Pointing them out only serves to exemplify the inhumanity of humanity. If it makes you feel good to constantly slam the US, and feel like some superior being, then good by me. Cheering for someone to receive a "bloody nose" i.e. more dead American troops, demonstrates your contempt for civility. Good show.

    ReplyDelete

  53. But the truth is that the American government uses a very cynical approach to its dealings with other nations.

    ok bruno, it also uses a very cynical approach dealing with it's own citizens.

    this article is an excellent example.


    Blackwater, the SS for Christofascists (ceo, major bible, dominionist) in waiting, has recently opened a branch 100 or so miles from Chicago. They have a place in N.C. Now they are trying to buy land near San Diego to create a huge training complex.


    Blackwater USA consists of nine companies:

    Blackwater Training Center
    Blackwater Target Systems
    Blackwater Security Consulting (Moyock, North Carolina)
    Blackwater Canine
    Blackwater Presidential Airways (PAWS)
    Blackwater Airships, LLC
    Blackwater Armored Vehicle
    Blackwater Maritime
    Raven Construction
    Blackwater North (Illinois)

    read it and weep

    this is a privatised 'school of the americas' (if you don't know what that is google it)

    "I’m in the middle of a battle,” Hedlun said. "I am a lamb in a lion’s den. They’re pushing this through quicker than anything I’ve ever heard in my entire life."

    Residents also raise concerns over the role of San Diego County officials in expediting the project. An article in the San Diego Reader concluded that Potrero residents are being "ambushed" by "county bureaucrats marching alongside Blackwater USA."

    pushing thru approval of a training camp by trying to bypass the community community.

    welcome to america, this is the privatization of the military cheney's wetdream. exit troops, enter militas.

    ReplyDelete


  54. Other than with Serbia, of course. Oh, and India and Pakistan, which are normally democracies, fight with each other. And of course, let’s not forget democratic Israel flattening democratic Lebanon. You may want to rethink your statement, which emanates from a decidedly deluded Neo-conservative source. These people should not be trusted.

    they are just following marching orders bruno..

    what exactly are you implying w/this domestic vs international blathering?"

    I'm implying that any terrorist organization that operates within Iraq ("domestic terrorism") is excluded from the "targeted operations, limited in duration and scope" of the senate resolution.

    so what? you implying something doesn't make it so. if the resolution defines AQ as an international terrorist group you coming along and designating its operations in iraq as 'domestic' thereby disqualifying iraq operations as included in the resolution is rhus spam, stupid logic. there is absolutely nothing in the resolution that " excludes al Qaeda in Iraq."

    your 'implications' are absurd.
    anyone can just call fiengolds office and ask. "oh, btw, excuuuse me, the 'exceptions including AQ, did you mean their operations in iraq??" lol, da.

    the context of the resolution (that you agree with)

    joke, another 'implication'.

    ReplyDelete

  55. I was more or less responding to Anne's complete negativity towards all that is American.

    who's really killing america?"

    there's more than one way to skin a cat. this is how people who abhor government programs (gop) 'privatize'. is this the 'gift' america 'offers' iraq.

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  56. I love the people who cite "violence down in Baghdad" as some sort of tangible progress, when the deadliest bombing thus far took place outside of Baghdad, Tal Afar, because Iraqi and American troops had pulled out to be a part of the "surge." And these were Turkmens! As Senator McCain, himself, said a year ago, "We are playing whack-a-mole in Iraq." Essentially you move soldiers to Baghdad, and the insurgents move outside Baghdad and wreak havoc there. This is beyond bad tactics: this is a crazy and, ultimately, Sisyphusian strategy.

    And to those who are comfortable with dropping the bombs in Japan, you might be less comfortable if you knew that the end of negotiations with Japan, and thus the decision to drop the bomb, may have occured because of a mistranslation of an offer from the Emperial Court. The translator was not skilled in formal and courtier Japanese, and he mistranslated the final offer.

    So nothing in war is as clear-cut as it seems. The magical thinking that this country teaches in "history classes" in primary and secondary schools is shameful. Talk about propaganda. There is relatively nothing, and I mean nothing, taught about world history, so the average American knows little about the outside world, while the outside world knows much more about Americans. For instance, I asked my class (university) where they thought Sarajevo was. The answers covered the spectrum from "Africa" to "Iraq." Not one student in three classes knew where the city was, let alone its recent bloody history.

    So yes, BT has a supreme right to be angry. I doubt many Americans would be happy if several countries, in a coalition, invaded, decided to change the government "for our own good," and allowed major urban areas to lapse into blood-steeped disasters (and don't think that couldn't happen: many cities are held in check by the finest blue line. Witness what is happening in New Orleans now that 1/2 of the police force is gone).

    BT, sorry about your father. I can't even imagine the pain, the anger, and the possibility of disability because it is too dangerous to venture out to another hospital. "Good news not being reported," my a**. What good news?

    ReplyDelete

  57. "And to those who are comfortable with dropping the bombs in Japan, you might be less comfortable if you knew that the end of negotiations with Japan, and thus the decision to drop the bomb, may have occured because of a mistranslation of an offer from the Emperial Court. The translator was not skilled in formal and courtier Japanese, and he mistranslated the final offer."

    mariestaad,
    It seems pretty easy now, sixty years after the fact, to second guess and arm-chair quarterback decisions that were made during a world war. Yes, I am comfortable with the decision to drop the bombs by a Democratic president. By using your own "..may have.." scenerio, Truman had to decide between allowing the two-pronged invasion of the Japanese islands to occur (Operation Olympic Nov. '45 and Operation Coronet Mar. '46) and cause an estimated one million Allied casualties , and countless more Japanese, or drop the bombs at an obviously horrible cost of two hundred thousand Japanese.
    Maybe I'm just a little biased here because my Dad was one of those that made it home. I don't celebrate the deaths in Japan any more than I celebrate the deaths in Iraq. War sucks and the quickest thing we can do to end this one is ensure that the Iraqi's can stand up to the idiots who are killing innocent civilians and children, then leave. By many accounts, that strategy is working today more than it was a few months ago. Any early exit would be a disaster above and beyond the disaster that already is, Iraq.

    ReplyDelete

  58. annie: "there is absolutely nothing in the resolution that " excludes al Qaeda in Iraq."

    So if the terrorists blow up an Iraqi marketplace after the resolution is in effect, you think the dems will risk Americans to pursue the attackers or prevent other attacks? Or would they say "that's domestic terrorism. Our narrow exceptions only allow action on international terrorism"? Which one, annie, and why?

    annie: "your 'implications' are absurd.
    anyone can just call fiengolds office and ask."

    "Senator Fiengold, do you give a rat's *ss about what happens to Iraqis after your resolution goes into effect?" That would be great. But you think I'd be able to speak to him? I'm not even one of his constituents. I did find an op-ed here though. It doesn't mention Iraqi citizens even once, nor does it express any concern whatsoever about what happens to the country after we leave. This is how it addresses the "narrow conditions":

    "After March, funding for the war in Iraq would be cut off, with three narrow exceptions -- targeted counterterrorism operations, protection of U.S. personnel and infrastructure, and training and equipping Iraqi forces."

    It doesn't say what he means by "targeted", does he? But it should be clear that he doesn't give a rat's *ss for Iraq or the Iraqis.

    OK, now this is awesome. You will enjoy this. That op-ed parallels the situation in Iraq with the situation in Somalia. You remember Somalia, right? America enterred to intervene in their civil war and save tens of thousands of starving Somalis. The mission expanded to pursue warlords who were fueling the violence. We lost some helicopters, lost some soldiers, lost our nerve, and withdrew. Somalia's violence continued to the present day, but nobody in Congress gave a rat's *ss about them. I know you will like this, because it was a Republican congress that forced the withdrawal back then. This is how Feingold put it:

    "Many Americans remember the tragic deaths of U.S. troops in Somalia in the early 1990s, vividly portrayed in the movie "Blackhawk Down." Those 18 service members died in a misguided, poorly defined military mission that had dragged on without an end date and without the support of the American people.

    As Congress debates the war in Iraq, the congressional debate over Somalia 14 years ago has some surprising parallels. Without question, Somalia in 1993 differs in many ways from Iraq in 2007, from the scope of the mission to the reason for that mission in the first place. What hasn't changed, however, is Congress' constitutional power to end a military mission, and its ability to use that power without endangering the safety of our brave troops.

    That is exactly what Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and I propose to do with legislation we will introduce when the Senate reconvenes next week."

    OK? Are you with me so far? Now, look at another op-ed by Feingold from January 16, 2007:

    "Recent reports that terrorists and hard-line members of the Islamic Courts in Somalia are on the run are capturing headlines. But that is only a small part of Somalia's story, and it shouldn't take our focus off the bigger challenge: Unless the United States helps create stability in Somalia, that country will remain what it has been since the early 1990s – a haven for terrorists and warlords, and a source of instability in a critical region."

    Holy cr*p, annie! Did you see that? That was an op-ed from the same Senator, written just a few months before he uses Somalia as an example of what Congress can, and in his opinion, should do in Iraq. Read both op-eds, annie. They are short. But OK, here's another excerpt:

    "The US should take at least three critical steps to bring stability to Somalia in the coming weeks and months.

    First, America needs to ramp up diplomatic efforts to build support for a robust international peacekeeping force that can deploy to Somalia immediately. The US will need to help – not necessarily with troops, but with airlift and logistical support and training."

    OK, do you understand what he's saying? Can I just leave it alone and let you comprehend that?

    Alright, one more:

    "Previous US attempts to resolve the competing and violent dynamics in Somalia have failed. Americans cannot forget that. But we cannot allow our past to overshadow the pressing security concerns we face in the region today. We have an opportunity to help the Somali people dig themselves out of almost two decades of chaos and to strengthen our national security. But if our government does not move quickly and aggressively on all fronts, Somalia will continue to be a haven for terrorist networks and a source of instability that pose a direct threat to the United States."

    So he gives a rat's *ss about the Somalis there, in an op-ed written in January 2007, but cites turning our backs on them 14 years ago as an example of what we should do now, in Iraq! Un-frigging-believable.

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  59. they are just following marching orders bruno..

    Annie, who is 'they'? What are you talking about? What 'orders'? I am just a ordinary free person. I am not following anyone's lead nor am I reciting propaganda. I am speaking from my personal experience, my families' stories, my understanding of history and commonly agreed upon facts. You don't even know what political party I belong to. Why so much skepticism?

    K

    ReplyDelete

  60. HI TOB, Annie and others

    Spot on my son, if people are so thick that they are still trying to justify this illegal invasion then they are better off watching Jerry Springer (oh the memories of that post!)

    Sorry to hear about your dad my friend,

    Not got time to read all the posts from the last couple of months, but will be back to responsing in the not too distant future, situation here in the UK is as it was

    Kind regards
    Steve

    ''Bush and Blair should be hung by the testicles after being found guilty of war crimes''
    Steve Cooke. St Andrews Scotland 2007

    ReplyDelete

  61. I doubt many Americans would be happy if several countries, in a coalition, invaded

    If I had to live under Saddam's rule, or anything like it, I WOULD HOPE THE WORLD WOULD HELP US! Why is that so hard to understand? Of course I would not want this to ruin my country but dictators ruin countries too. Treasure, annie, bruno, all agree that they would not want to live in a brutal dictatorship, so why do you think Americans would want that? If George Bush took total control of the country, executed Pelosi, Clinton, Gore, McCain, and Giuliani, murdered millions of Americans, plastered his picture everywhere, fired congress, shut down all news services, ignored term limits, reigned supreme for 30 years and killed anyone who challenged him, you are telling me you would not want the world to intervene!? I sure would, even if it meant rebuilding our nation from scratch!

    Who knows? Perhaps someday a democratic Iraq will come to OUR rescue.

    BT has a supreme right to be angry.

    I agree! Treasure, don't ever let anyone take away your right to be angry, my friend!

    K

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  62. “We have never gone to war with a free democratic nation nor has any other free democracy in ALL WOLRD HISTORY.”

    You may want to rethink your statement, which emanates from a decidedly deluded Neo-conservative source. These people should not be trusted.

    they are just following marching orders bruno..

    k, the section in bold, here and in my original post refers to 'these people'. the source from which this propaganda you are repeating comes from about free democracies. you can read all sorts of these kinds of statements emanating from sources like AEI, a neocon think tank. they never waver from a certain view.

    "This "debate" is a typical illustration of a primary principle of sophisticated propaganda. In crude and brutal societies, the Party Line is publicly proclaimed and must be obeyed -- or else. What you actually believe is your own business and of far less concern. In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line. It becomes beyond question, beyond thought itself, like the air we breathe."

    I am just a ordinary free person. I am not following anyone's lead nor am I reciting propaganda.

    k, while you may regard you thinking as 'independent' i regard it as not such a coincidence that posters w/a decidedly 'pro all things america view' are seemingly incapable of ever finding any fault of criticizing and past or present actions of america wrong. also, the assumption tht anyone who does criticise america could love our country (as i do) and the accusations i continually receive of 'hating' my country creates an atmosphere, by design, to discourage discourse that strays from a party line ie what becomes permissible in 'reasonable discourse'.

    while you may consider your thoughts independent, what i hear is framing within these boundaries either by design or conditioning.
    having scepticism is normal, it is never directed towards america from posters always defending america.

    that said, i do recognize that the particular statement that started this debate is not a view solely held by neocons. perhaps my comment was a little reckless in this regard. please don't take my view personally.

    ReplyDelete

  63. hi steve! and edo too who said hi earlier!

    BT, this morning while working in my garden on this beautiful spring day, i thought of you and your mother's beautiful garden, and your father. i made a little prayer for peace, goodness and health to surround and watch over your whole family.

    ReplyDelete

  64. K,
    Hmmm, I kind of think we are living under a totalitarian goverment of sorts, if you use Hannah Arendt's definition of one; the Patriot Act I & II basically stripped you of rights that were guaranteed under the Constitution. We have "secret prisons" in many countries that house alleged terrorists, and for all we know, American citizens, who have been accused, but have no right to confront their accusers or evidence because they are deemed "non-combatants," no habeas corpus for them! We also have weakened protection of the judicial branch of our government, as the Patriot Act made it easier to dismiss judges. If you write emails to a foreign country on the "hot list," or you make phone calls to the same, you may be monitored for no other reason than that. And remember how we, as a country, used to scream about the USSR's gulags? Do you not think that GITMO is reminiscent of these? The military admits that there are innocent men there (because of the "bounty system" they implemented in Afghanistan: turn your "Taliban" neighbor in for $1000, a lot of money in a very poor country) Even Secretary Gates said we must shut GITMO down to restore our legitmacy in the world. But would I want another country to come rescue me from this? Hell no.

    This administration, and we are complicit in this, has systematically destroyed everything your dad and my dad (who also was in WWII) fought for—freedom from fascist governments. You don't have to kill your political opponents to kill your citizens' rights, and thus your democracy. If it takes lining the opposition up and executing them to get the American public's attention, then woe to us.

    BTW: I'm not "armchair quarterbacking" on the mistranslation. That would be WWII historians. Perhaps we should do something about them too. We wouldn't want our history to be tarnished by a bunch of leftie busybody academics. We could photoshop that translation into a thank you note from the Japanese people, or a brick wall, just like Stalin did with photographs of "officially out of favor" (read dead) party members.

    ReplyDelete

  65. speaking of propaganda. during the 40's on german radio stations the high command gave notice on evil upcoming attacks by polish troops, supposedly intercepting enemy orders. they became the brunt of running jokes.

    centcom intercepts news of upcoming bin laden video.

    whatever. i googled the text which does not appear anywhere but rightwing sites spreading this fear. perhaps the original on the alledged jihadist website is in arabic. they didn't provide a link. i am curious where this news came from.

    i guess we should all thank centcom for the warning. one would think w/all the technology they could track the source and go haul him in. nothing like a new bin laden video to racket up the fear factor.

    ReplyDelete

  66. BTW: I'm not "armchair quarterbacking" on the mistranslation. That would be WWII historians. Perhaps we should do something about them too. We wouldn't want our history to be tarnished by a bunch of leftie busybody academics. We could photoshop that translation into a thank you note from the Japanese people, or a brick wall, just like Stalin did with photographs of "officially out of favor" (read dead) party members.

    Mariestaad,
    I'll ask my Dad if he agrees with you regarding your assessment of the validity of using the atomic bombs. Or, better yet, I'll have that eighty-four year old veteran ask you directly. I'm sure your insight from being a part of that era will be insightful, to him and us.
    "We could photoshop that translation into a thank you note from the Japanese people, or a brick wall, just like Stalin did with photographs of "officially out of favor" (read dead) party members. "

    Thank you for completely losing all credibilty with me by that statement. As nauseous as I am by that, I'll not dismiss you as I'm sure others have. I'll just know where you are coming from, better.
    Believe it or not, I, as a conservative, actually enjoy dialog. Unlike liberals who seek to silence all that is not their view. Must I sight way too many examples?
    Good Grief Charlie Brown!

    ReplyDelete

  67. annie: "i googled the text which does not appear anywhere but rightwing sites spreading this fear."

    Why should we fear another video of him?

    annie: "one would think w/all the technology they could track the source and go haul him in."

    Maybe the source was a phone call from him in Pakistan to you in the US? Wouldn't wanna ruffle any feathers...

    ReplyDelete

  68. Milwaukean...hmm I'm not sure about that. Anyway,
    regarding War, and in your case WWII and the judgement of America's character by dropping the 2 A bombs. I don't think you can say much of anything when two animals are locked in what might be death grips, fur and blood flying. Those are animals out there not human beings. They are just trying to survive. They will use anything that politics or national interests justify. Atrocities are now and were committed in EVERY war.

    However as a very last resort war is justified, in my opinion. Preemptive strikes as the American President has justified is not, in my opinion.

    Your opinion is biased because your own father was almost being thrown into that animal pit. Of course you /anyone would justify any action to save him. Then we wouldn't want to know any of the details on what the "cost" was in human life.


    "Collateral damage" as they say in militaryese

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  69. I don't think you can say much of anything when two animals are locked in what might be death grips, fur and blood flying. Those are animals out there not human beings. They are just trying to survive. They will use anything that politics or national interests justify.

    edoriver:
    Whatever, I'm pretty damn glad I'm alive to debate you. And Dad , God bless him, probably would say like-wise. So, I'll leave you with this: A Blessed Easter , Happy Passover, or whatever makes your day- May God bless you and yours.
    Asaalam Aleikum.

    ReplyDelete

  70. we wouldn't want to know any of the details on what the "cost" was in human life.
    edoriver::::

    I will respond.
    First of all. I would encourage you to read "Top Secret" by James Martin Davis , Ranger Publications,

    The "cost" of human life was pretty much put out in plain "english" , in so far as casaulties and all THAT. The expectations of enemy casaulties, was absolutely mind-fu_cking. The Allied casualties was going to be incredible, but EXCEPTABLE. That is what WW2 was. Different.In comparison to today's WAR. And good grief, do we really want to LOSE this war?

    ReplyDelete

  71. I, as a conservative, actually enjoy dialog. Unlike liberals who seek to silence all that is not their view.

    LOL, I like your name cheesehead, it suits you.

    Thank you for completely losing all credibilty with me by that statement. As nauseous as I am by that, I'll not dismiss you as I'm sure others have.

    You won't 'dismiss' her?? How generous of you.

    You claim she has lost all credibility, makes you nauseous, are 'sure' what others think, and have the gall to claim it is liberals who shut down dialog they disagree with. All in the same paragraph!

    I don't care what your 84 year old dad thinks, you either, speaking of loosing credibility.

    Thus far the only judgment you've shown is your choice of name.

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  72. mariestaad

    If you write emails to a foreign country on the "hot list," or you make phone calls to the same, you may be monitored for no other reason than that.

    LOL , i fear that is the least of it

    an Israeli-based company called Amdocs Ltd. that generates the computerized records and billing data for nearly every phone call made in America.

    listen to the fox video to understand the 'back door' into spying on any american.

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  73. McCain Says He Erred on Iraq Security
    By JOHN M. BRODER
    WASHINGTON, April 6 — Senator John McCain has issued an apology of sorts for his remarks after visiting a Baghdad market last weekend, saying he misspoke when he declared that his ability to walk freely around the marketplace was a sign of a significant improvement in security in Iraq.

    He led a Congressional delegation through the Shorja market under tight security, with 100 heavily armed American troops guarding the group and attack helicopters and snipers watching over them. Mr. McCain, Republican of Arizona, and another member of the delegation, Representative Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, said the conditions showed that the decision to deploy more than 20,000 additional American forces to Iraq was having the intended effect.

    Baghdad residents expressed astonishment at Mr. McCain’s rosy remarks, saying that he visited the marketplace, the scene of numerous deadly bombings, under unrealistic conditions. Democrats and antiwar bloggers ridiculed him for blindly supporting the administration’s so-called surge policy.

    Mr. McCain, in an interview to be broadcast on CBS News’ “60 Minutes” on Sunday, acknowledged that his critics were right. “Of course I am going to misspeak and I’ve done it on numerous occasions and I probably will do it in the future. I regret that when I divert attention to something I said from my message, but you know, that’s just life.”

    On Feb. 28 on the “Late Show With David Letterman,” Mr. McCain criticized President Bush’s management of the war, saying, “We’ve wasted a lot of our most precious treasure, which is American lives, over there.” He apologized the next day for the word “wasted,” saying he should have said “sacrificed.”

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  74. CBS 60 Minutes Covers Senators' Trip to Iraq
    McCains Foot in Mouth And Walkabout Bigfoots Real Advances Due to Surge
    By ROBERT Y. PELTON

    "Sadly, controversy from the CBS media event seems to have overshadowed and undermined the original scripted message: That Baghdad IS safer than it was 8 weeks ago.

    Has the surge created areas in Baghdad that an American (even a brave and high profile one like McCain) can walk around in safety. Of course not. But there is timid sense of order in what was the most chaotic and violent city on earth. The numbers show more deaths but civilians can actually in selected neighborhoods can see improvements in security.

    McCain's effusive scripting has overshadowed much of the work that Petraeus and the increased troop levels have achieved. The other news is that the U.S. has shifted the center of gravity of the violence from the capital to outlying areas."

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  75. there is timid sense of order in what was the most chaotic and violent city on earth.

    U.S. announces 10 soldier deaths including six killed on Sunday.

    Security remained so tenuous in the capital on the eve of the fourth anniversary of the U.S. capture of Baghdad that Iraq's military declared a 24-hour ban on all vehicles in the capital from 5 a.m. Monday.....Violence in Iraq remained as relentless as the deepening debate in the United States about the way forward ...

    At least 47 people were killed or found dead in violence Sunday, including 17 execution victims dumped in the capital.

    "You, the Iraqi army and police forces, don't walk alongside the occupiers, because they are your archenemy," the al-Sadr statement said.

    He urged his followers not to attack fellow Iraqis but to turn all their efforts on American forces.

    "God has ordered you to be patient in front of your enemy, and unify your efforts against them -- not against the sons of Iraq," the statement said.

    Sen. Joseph Lieberman, an independent of Connecticut, said al-Sadr's words showed the American troop surge was working.

    "He is not calling for a resurgence of sectarian conflict. He's striking a nationalist chord. We're going to have to watch him closely. He's not our friend. ... He's acknowledging that the surge is working," the senator, a strong backer of the war, said on CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

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  76. Goeie more bruno, Hoe gaan dit met jou?

    Other than with Serbia, of course. Oh, and India and Pakistan, which are normally democracies, fight with each other. And of course, let’s not forget democratic Israel flattening democratic Lebanon. You may want to rethink your statement, which emanates from a decidedly deluded Neo-conservative source. These people should not be trusted.

    Pakistan is a democracy? Wow, I've never heard anyone claim that before. Very innovative. Ayub Khan was elected? No, I don't think so. After he took power by coup he started the 1965 Indo-Pak war. Pakistan DID elect Mujibar Rahman. Too bad "President" Kahn refused to give up power - that led the civil war that expanded to the 1971 Indo-Pak War. My parents were in India DURING that war. Your country wasn't a democracy yet, bruno. Back then, the Afrikaner government probably would not have even let the press accurately report the war to you anyway.

    Congratulations for declaring Israel a democracy. I didn't expect this from you, bruno. Sure, they oppress half their population but then at least they DO have a free press! And that is much better than say, denying 95% of your population the right to learn to read! Now Nasrallah on the other hand? Oh sure, he is very popular, but the only person who elected him was the Grand Ayatollah himself. The political arm of Hezbollah only controls one tenth of the parliamentary seats yet launched a war on on Lebanese soil on their behalf without asking ANY Lebanese, who are still under effective Syrian and Iranian political control anyway. It not unrelated that these are the same regimes that are preventing Iraq from becoming a safe democracy too. Not unrelated at all!

    I can't even bear to ponder Milosevic as a democratic leader. Anyway, I didn't think you would believe me and I am not going to discuss every war in history with you. Asseblief, look into it for yourself with an open mind.

    K

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  77. Annie,

    Thank you for your thoughtful and rapid reply. Hope you had a happy Easter.

    while you may regard [your] thinking as 'independent' i regard it as not such a coincidence that posters w/a decidedly 'pro all things america view' are seemingly incapable of ever finding any fault of criticizing and past or present actions of america wrong.

    I have NO problem criticizing my government when they do wrong. But removing Saddam from power was not wrong. Leaving troops in Iraq until there is security as long as the elected representatives approve is not wrong. Rebuilding an Iraqi democracy, is not wrong. So I will not criticize my government for doing those things. I will also not tell foreigners that my government is overly oppressive because I don't believe that it is. I will not tell them that Republicans are worse than Ba'athists because I do not believe that. And I will never say that living under dictatorship is acceptable because I know that to be false.

    Annie, it seems paradoxical that you would accuse me of touting the "Party Line" of the Neoconservatives while retorting with a quote from Chomsky. I believe it is you who are guilty of clinging to party politics over the safety, security and freedom of the American and Iraqi people. I do not disagree that Neoconservatives share my feelings about the historical absence of war between free democracies. It IS, after-all, one of the founding premises of their ideological movement. Does that mean we should not discuss the validity of this remarkable hypothesis just because they agree with it? I stated it, because I believe it to be TRUE, from my personal experience and knowledge, not because THEY said it. If anything, they are FINALLY agreeing with me! As Christopher Hitchens says, "They are my temporary ally" on this issue, nothing more. As long as they stand for freedom and against dictatorship they will stay my ally. If they falter, they will loose my trust. I say these things because I honestly believe it is the best way to help Treasure, his father, family and all our Iraqi friends.

    K

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  78. [k] “Pakistan is a democracy? Wow, I've never heard anyone claim that before.”

    Except for that I claimed: “India and Pakistan, which are normally democracies, fight with each other.”

    Except for that you go on to cite several instances of Pakistani democracy. Sure, it isn’t NOW, since the US-SUPPORTED Gen. Musharraf is in power, but what can one do, eh? My point is actually that local geopolitics are more important than governmental structure.

    [bruno] “And of course, let’s not forget democratic Israel flattening democratic Lebanon.”
    [k] “Congratulations for declaring Israel a democracy. I didn't expect this from you, bruno.”

    The *general* structure of the country’s political system is democratic, despite all the obvious flaws you have pointed out. And I’ll bet you dollars to dimes that there is not a chance in hell that the people that originated the “democracies don’t fight” myth will ever class Israel as anything BUT a pure, decent democracy that would never do anything evil like grind their disenfranchised Arab citizens into the dust. But, we’re talking about POLITICAL STRUCTURE, aren’t we? As I said, these people are not to be trusted. Lebanon has a more-or less democratic system in place as well, where politicians are elected by the people. Of course, that didn’t stop Israel from completely flattening the entire country, instead of concentrating on legitimate targets, like the Hezbollah fighters. I guess they were too hard a target.

    [k] “I can't even bear to ponder Milosevic as a democratic leader.”

    Except for that he WAS elected, wasn’t he? On July 15 1997 Milosevic was elected president of Yugoslavia. It kind of puts the ol’ steak knife into the “democracies never fight” myth, doesn’t it?

    [k] “Anyway, I didn't think you would believe me and I am not going to discuss every war in history with you.”
    [k] “I do not disagree that Neoconservatives share my feelings about the historical absence of war between free democracies. It IS, after-all, one of the founding premises of their ideological movement. Does that mean we should not discuss the validity of this remarkable hypothesis just because they agree with it?”

    Interesting contrast, there.

    I suppose you will similarly be disinclined to ponder the rise of Hitler to power through the democratic system, nor the implications of Britain’s declaration of war on Finland in 1941?

    Your all-inclusive “remarkable hypothesis” is full of holes before you’re even started.

    I’d be more inclined to say that a democracy is LESS likely to go to war than another less accountable system, since the repercussions of failure will be more terminal to a presiding party’s career prospects than in a dictatorship for example. ( Of course, the behaviour of the USA lately is breaking down that hypothesis as well.)




    Annie quoted this, which bears repeating:

    “In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line.”

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  79. K,

    so we took out the "devil" Hussein, and as I believe BT once put it, "we installed 10,000 devils instead." We took a secular nation and turned it over to theocrats who are enboldened and supported by Iran. Women wear the habib because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. Men are being shot for wearing shorts or western garb. For you, democracy is an abstraction, a grand idea that everyone should embrace, but for the average person caught in the roiling violence of Iraq, it is bitter dust in their mouths, it is the smell of burnt bodies, it is going without electricity, it is not leaving the house for days, it is not allowing your children to go to school, and miss formative education, because it is too dangerous. This isn't a liberal or conservative reality or nightmare; this is real politik, what is actually taking place. How very colonial of us to assume people want us to thrust a government on them, especially one that is socially more repressive than what preceded it.

    That's what "gun-barrel" democracy does—I believe the Ottomans tried this, covert by the sword, and failed in the end.

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  80. it seems paradoxical that you would accuse me of touting the "Party Line" of the Neoconservatives while retorting with a quote from Chomsky. I believe it is you who are guilty of clinging to party politics

    and what party does chomsky represent? pleease!

    I have NO problem criticizing my government when they do wrong.

    no as in NO!! you just see no fault..

    removing Saddam from power was not wrong.

    no matter how it was done? based on lies? w/no competent plan? with a plan that disenfranchised a core of the population?

    Leaving troops in Iraq until there is security as long as the elected representatives approve is not wrong.

    even tho the choices on the ballot only represented people the invader approved of?

    Rebuilding an Iraqi democracy, is not wrong.

    don't you mean building a democracy under the authority of an incompetent invading criminal occupation?

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  81. Just saw something about the Victory Arch in Baghdad and a controversy concerning whether it should be removed. I am curious as to your opinion. Is it a Saddam statue or an Iraq statue?

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  82. Poor Sancho,

    I read about the victory arch's issue a few weeks ago in Newsweek and how Maliki's government wants to demolish it.

    Here are the details:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hands_of_Victory

    whether it was a Saddam thing or not, I am against demolishing them. They are part of history and history should not be demolished. But what can we say to the sick minds who are governing us and trying to satisfy Iran by all means?!!!!

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  83. Hitler, Milosevic, Davis, Mugabe, Ahmadinejad, Karimov, Chavez, Botha, and of course, Saddam were all "elected". Virtually every dictator in Africa claims he was elected. But by what majority? And under what conditions?

    An election means NOTHING if there is only one party or if all of a dictator's political opponents are murdered or imprisoned. A fair election is not possible with an enslaved or starved population with little or no access to accurate information. An election means nothing if no one is free to criticize the current regime and challenge it.

    Hitler's party murdered many of his political rivals before enforcing Gleichschaltung or "total control" over the German people. Only a small minority of wealthy white male landowners could vote in the American Confederacy led by Davis. Obviously I don't need to remind you, bruno, what measly percentage of your nation elected the Groot Krokodil.

    A safe, liberal, free democracy is not something that pops in and out of existence. Just like a person, it takes years, no, DECADES, to develop into stability and maturity. It is not an election held one day and then overturned by a putsch the next. It requires a free press with which to express grievances without fear of reprisal from the government. It requires multiple parties with different agendas and opinions. It requires opposition that can demand change without fear. All of a democracy's constituent components must also be democratic as well. A true democratic "political structure" is evident, not from one show election, but from peaceful constitutional transfer of power over and over, again and again, using free and fair elections, without revolution, assassination or coup.

    K

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  84. I’d be more inclined to say that a democracy is LESS likely to go to war than another less accountable system, since the repercussions of failure will be more terminal to a presiding party’s career prospects than in a dictatorship
    -bruno

    Hey, that's good enough for me, bruno! That almost sounds like agreement. Maybe we'll see eye to eye after all. Your observation might explain why dictatorships and repressive regimes go to war with each other more often than with any other type of "political system". Again, the historical examples are numerous.

    K

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  85. Thanks T of B, I had a feeling it may have an Iranian bent to the story. What is your guess. Will they stay up or come down?

    Is it true that in southern Iraq towns that much of business is done in Farsi? Or do just alot of people speak Farsi?

    Thanks for the info! its snowing today...

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  86. "Is it true that in southern Iraq towns that much of business is done in Farsi?"

    Hi Poor Sancho,

    I don't think it's all in Farsi. people in southern Iraq speak Arabic with Iraqi dialect. But I know that merchants and shop owners in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala speak Farsi due to the increasing number of Shiite Iranian pilgrims visiting the holy shrines of the prophet Mohammed's Household. But in general, they all speak Arabic.

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  87. Thanks T of B

    I hear alot in the news these opinionaters making it appear that Iran is atempting taking over that region, in an economic sense. I appreciate some clarification.

    I just saw a piece on CNN where they were showing a lecture and discussion at East Baghdad University comparing the Iraq War to the Viet Nam War. During the lecture low thumping of what I guess to be mortar or artillery fire can be heard in the background. The topic quickly shifted to how can you get an education while that is going on? And the students didnt even flinch, not once!

    With such clarity that one moment caught on tape, not staged like Senator McCains stroll along the Tigris, shows what Baghdad citizens deal with on a daily basis.

    We see little of things like this, everyday life. And I was amazed by the courage these students show in simply showing up for class on time.

    Anyway, thanks for listening.

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  88. I just saw a piece on CNN where they were showing a lecture and discussion at East Baghdad University comparing the Iraq War to the Viet Nam War.
    -poor sancho

    I saw the same piece! What the professor of the class said resonated very deeply with me. So much that I wrote it down to share with you now!

    "Maybe the situation in Iraq right now is not a good situation, but the challenge of the human is how to create the best situation in order to provide a future to society"

    "For me, the best thing is how to keep the unity"

    Abdul Jabber Ahmed
    Political Science Professor
    East Baghdad University

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  89. I would really like to hear the whole discussion. I could not think of people with more crediblility than the young students that will lead Iraq into the future, God Willing.

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  90. LA Times has the video piece i was referencing earlier

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/complete/

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  91. I would really like to hear the whole discussion. I could not think of people with more crediblility than the young students that will lead Iraq into the future, God Willing.

    I agree completely! I wish I could sit in or watch it by webfeed. 1 hour in that classroom would be worth 1000 hours of CNN.

    K

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  92. Hitler, Milosevic, Davis, Mugabe, Ahmadinejad, Karimov, Chavez, Botha, and of course, Saddam were all "elected".

    hey, so was george! he was 'elected' in the last election w/e machines w/no paper trail! the first time he was "elected" by the supreme court! and egypt has an "elected" leader that imprisoned his opponent! i watched a tv special on 60 minutes last week.

    an interesting commentary on democracy

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  93. Treasure of Baghdad: Thank you for expressing so eloquently what a lot of people including myself think of McCain's senseless comments!

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  94. David All,

    You are very welcome :)

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  95. warning
    This is a very important message about an Islamic terroristic grand Attack.

    کیر بزمجه عربستان و مصر تو کس ننه هرکی سیده.
    سنده ملت جهان تو کس ننه حافظان شریعت اسلام

    کیر خوک تو کس ننه فاحشه => پاسدار یا بسیجی یا اطلاعاتی یا جاسوس اسلام یا سید یا حزب اللهی

    گوه خوک تو ننه امام حسین شد امام حسن

    سنده شیطان تو حلق محمد رسول الله قرآن شد.

    خرطوم فیل تو کس ننه پیامبر اسلام.

    الله اکبر
    خامنه ای عنتر
    مرگ بر دوست ولایت فقیه
    درود بر آمریکا

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  96. We will have every Hizbollah women fucked by dogs.
    We will send Phallus of ours into ass of All priests moslems.
    We will have Khamenei and Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad and Khatami and Akbar Ganji fucked by a great penis Of donkey and whale .
    We will fuck all foreign government which help mullah.
    کیر سگ تو کس ننه سید اولاد پیغمبر و کس ننه خود پیامبر اسلام.
    کیر خوک تو کس ننه امام حسین.
    کیر خر تو کس ننه شیعیان.
    صلوات: الله و کیر خر تو کس ننه محمد و آل محمد.
    This is a beautiful cultural message for you.

    ReplyDelete

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