
The sticker carried a website address which eventually appeared to be a blog address. In all cases, I wasn’t interested.
However, I stopped for a minute staring at the photo not because
There was one advantage I learned from this war, I told Omar. He looked at me and asked, “which war?” The latest one, I replied. I learned how to differentiate between the term “Zionist” and “Jew”.
He looked at me in daze! “Yes, it’s only in 2003 that I learned what the difference between these two words is.” There were so many questions in his mind. I didn’t wait for him to ask them. I explained why it’s just recently that I learned that difference.
At home, we never discussed politics, NEVER, period. My parents were so cautious about these things. Any mistake would take all of us, if not all of my tribe, to jail or execution by Saddam’s people. One of the things we did not discuss at home was who the Jews and the Zionists are. It was only once I recall my mother and grandmother talking about their Jewish Iraqi neighbors and friends whom they missed. I was 12 or 13 at that time. I asked both of them about it. My mother sighed and said that the Iraqi Jews were very nice and lovely people. That was it. She never mentioned anything after that neither did my grandmother.
I was like most teenagers whose main source of news was Saddam’s regime’s media outlets and school curricula. They all denounced the “Jews”. None of them clarified what the difference was. Like most of those in my age, I was brain washed. I was taught to hate the “Jews”, all of them, not only the “Zionists”.
I tried to know more about what is happening in
When I was in undergraduate school, I didn’t know anything about how journalism works. When the second Intifadha occurred in September 2000 between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis, I was full of hatred. I hated the “Jews”. I didn’t know that this term was far broader than what is happening in
Before 2003, the term “Jews” among most Iraqis in my age meant the Zionists. I even recall how a rumor was spread in my undergrad school when one of my classmates said that a member of the “Backstreet Boys” band is Jewish. Most of the classmates told her that “this was untrue. It seems there was someone trying to distort the reputation of the band in
It is also ironic that one of the text books I had in my undergrad school was written by Noam Chomsky. It was about Linguistics. I recall my professor saying that Chomsky was a Jew who is against the State of Israel! He did not elaborate and none of the students asked him more about it. No one wanted to be in trouble. I kept wondering how come he is Jewish and he’s against the State of Israel which we called the “Zionist Entity” at the time. I found no answer till after the 2003 war.
Finally, the confusion I had and the decades of misinformation have come to end. After the invasion, I was able to start the investigation by myself. Saddam was gone. It was time to ask without being fearful.
The first thing that clarified things to me was when I worked with American journalists. I discovered that some of them were Jews. I didn’t know what to do. I was afraid and confused. I couldn’t even ask for people’s advice. How come I tell them I work with those whom they hated their entire lives? Should I keep working with them or stop? I wondered. I was torn. “These are Zionists,” I thought at the time until I found out the real difference.
It was through the internet that I first recognized that mysterious difference that was hidden and kept away from Iraqis for decades. It was time to ask more about the Iraqi Jews. Who were they? Where did they go? How do they look like? Were they like the Israeli soldiers killing the Palestinians? And more questions were that were held hostage in my mind for a long time. I let them free. I asked everyone knew an Iraqi Jew. I started with my grandmother. I sat on the brown wooden sofa in her kitchen. We talked for hours. Eventually she cried when she remembered her best Jewish friend Clair who was her neighbor as well. She was one of the thousands of Iraqi Jews who were forced to leave
She recalled the “Farhood al Yahood”, a pogrom against the Iraqi Jews that took place on June 1-2, 1941 where Jews were injured and murdered, Jewish property was looted, and Jewish houses were burnt down.
For three years now, I think of those people. I kept asking myself, why did that happen to them? They are Iraqis. That was their home as well as mine. I felt so angry and unable to imagine how much I was deceived. I even feel guilty because they were deprived from their homeland by the time we enjoyed it. Sometimes I think what is happening now is heaven’s revenge to what happened to the Jews.
Until this day, I surf the web to read more about them and their traditions hoping to meet up with one of them one day. All what I read is moving and touching. Some of their writings brought tears to my eyes. I remember an article written by Shmuel Moreh, an Iraqi Jewish Professor and Chairman of the Association of Jewish Academics from
Another Jewish Iraqi website I came across is called Reminisce of Baghdad where the author documented his family’s pictures and tales when they were in
To all the Iraqi Jews, I take a bow to your love and loyalty to your country which you were forced to leave. One day, all of us will go back to our beloved

BT,
ReplyDeleteJust a suggestion but if I were you I'd take that picture of the sticker off your website or blur the web address so it can't be read. The site is an offensive racist website run by some anti-Jew neo-Nazi group. The web address can confuse people into thinking it's a news site.
Very interesting post, BT. I found this part to be most revealing and sad but funny at the same time:
ReplyDelete'I even recall how a rumor was spread in my undergrad school when one of my classmates said that a member of the “Backstreet Boys” band is Jewish. Most of the classmates told her that “this was untrue. It seems there was someone trying to distort the reputation of the band in Iraq”. She swore she read that in an American magazine smuggled through Jordan. No one believed her. Eventually, she stopped talking about it.'
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for pointing out this to me. It is fixed now. My intention was not to reveal the website's content. I wanted to say that the sticker triggered memories and things I didn't know before.
bests,
BT.
Wow, you're fast, BT. :-)
ReplyDeleteI just want to nitpick a little more, though. :-P
I think you should remove where you said it was a "Jewish" blog. It's definitely not (the word "Aryan" is a big tipoff) and that could be very misleading. Even though people can't see the web address now, they see a sticker with a picture of Sharon and the word "Submit", and you saying it's a "Jewish" blog (which it's not)... well, they'd get the wrong idea.
(I know this wasn't the whole point of your post, and I found your post very moving. I just wouldn't want this one wrong thing to detract from your great post)
Hi Iraqi Mojo,
ReplyDeleteIsn't that funny?! Whenever I remember this, I feel so bad. Man! We really need to make other people know the difference like me. I don't know how, but we should!
Here is another one that happened after the war when I have already known that difference. once, I took the taxi to work. On the way to the office, an American civilian convoy passed by. the driver had to pull over because they might shoot at the car as happened before. He started cursing them. "F*** those Jews" he said. I asked him how would he know these were Jews! He replied he knows them from their tattoos!!!!! I was shocked! I asked him, "how would you know?" he replies, "Trust me, all of them are Jews and all of them have Tattoos!".
I didn't even argue about it. He was one of those who were forced to believe in it. I also did not want to argue with him because he might have been one of the Mujahideen or one of those who support them!!!
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks again. I fixed that too.
Cheers,
BT
'She recalled the “Farhood al Yahood”, a pogrom against the Iraqi Jews that took place on June 1-2, 1941 where Jews were injured and murdered, Jewish property was looted, and Jewish houses were burnt down.
ReplyDeleteWow I did not know that. 1941?? I thought that Iraqi Jews were mistreated only in the 50s. I had know idea about 1941.
Well I'm glad that Iraqis are now free to learn the truth. Amazing post, BT.
There is also a difference between Israelis who believe in justice for Palestinians and Israelis who want to expel the Palestinians from the West Bank & Gaza. Have you seen these web sites by Israeli Jews?
http://gush-shalom.org/
http://www.btselem.org/index.asp
For some reason btselem's index page isn't working.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.btselem.org/Arabic/
http://www.btselem.org/English/
hey i'm really glad to see this post. when i hear people not distinguish between zionism and jews it's kind of really painful for me, it's been the bane of the existence of many people i know who are involved in palestinian activism(being associated with this kind of thinking). seeing stuff like this makes my day. gives me hope, you know?
ReplyDeletealso there's this blog called jews of lebanon...it's pretty interesting in that respect.
also re: israelis, i saw a very cool article a while back about this israeli settlement in the west bank being protested by palestinian jews that were originally living in that village prior to 48.
ReplyDeleteand of course there's plenty of anti zionist jews around.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html
this is interesting too, though it's more about israel than iraq.
ok, i'm done.
the link didn't work, here
ReplyDeleteWell, we discussed it yesterday. But I still blame you and your family. Saddam prevented information, that’s true. But it was your family’s role to educate you. When I went to school, elementary and high school, education didn’t stop there. In fact, education in my family started after school. When I came back home every day, school started. It was my family’s responsibility to correct the information the teachers had to give us.
ReplyDeleteI can imagine that you and your family were afraid of discussing such issues. But they deprived you of children right number one and family task number one: Education!
One more thing:
ReplyDeleteDid you know that the word "zionist" is not an insult or a bad word to describe someone, as we were taught in school?
In Israel, when you call someone a "zionist" it means you called him a loyal!
Hi again Mojo,
ReplyDeleteThe websites you provided sound interesting to read. I’ll make sure I read them in depth. Thanks a lot.
Nadia N,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I feel like you now. I can’t imagine that there are so many people still live with this attitude.
As for Ahmadinajad’s reinvestigation of the Holocaust, I think this man is trying to destroy the Iranian nation by all means. I understand his hatred to Israel but I don’t understand his attitudes against the Holocaust.
Omar,
ReplyDeleteI disagree with you as we discussed that yesterday. My family educated me with different kinds of sciences and arts but avoided educating me with anything that messes up with Saddam and his attitudes. You see things differently because your family was different. Yours was always challenging and opposing Saddam on public [which is something good, of course]. But mine was very peaceful and away from anything that put them in trouble. For me, that’s how we survived and that’s how millions of families survived as well for more than 35 years. So, I don’t put the blame on my family. I respect them for they did. I know that because they didn’t want to see us hurt or executed like what happened to hundreds of thousands of families who were buried alive just because they said their attitudes against Saddam publicly. If I were in their shoes, I would do the same. I would anything to keep my children away from danger, not sending them to danger.
As for the Zionist thing, I know that the term is not insulting. But as you and all Iraqis who lived in Iraq know, Israel was called “The Zionist Entity” not the “State of Israel”.
Treasure,
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize the image of Israel was so pervasive in Middle East society. Very interesting.
Americans also have a mixed image of Jews.
In the small southern town where I was born and lived through high school. I knew of only one Jewish family. They owned the best men's clothing store in town.
Then in high school our Church youth group attended a synogogue service about 120km away.
In the small college I went to, it was previously known only as a school for future Presbyterian ministers (my family hoped I would take that path)
In college during the end of the Vietnam war protest I began reading Noam Chomsky. What an intellectual. I also read alot of mysticism. Hasidic Jewish tales, Sufi tales, American Indian stories, etc. There is a great Jewish novelist Haim Potok, of the 1970's and early 1980's. He wrote about 6 novels of being Jewish and growing up in New York City. I enjoyed every one.
It wasn't until much later after marriage and while living in LA that I have become very close to a Jewish math high school teacher. If I didn't move to Japan I would teaching in the same school. Joel would probably do more for me than my own family, if I asked.
However, However, when it comes to talking about Palestinian rights, its like I fall off a dark cliff and never reach him..our conversations go no where, no compromise, He is married to a non-Jewish woman, and he volunteered to take in one of her cousins, an elementary school student at the time to live with him, because his sons were already grown up. Shannon stayed for about 5-6 years until she decided to return home to a small town in Ohio. That girl had/has alot of emotional problems to deal with. Joel and his wife did the best they could (he is a little old fashioned strict ;-)
Yeah, if Joel would only become a Bahai it would be perfect ;-)
Nice and interesting blog :P
ReplyDeleteOk ...
ReplyDeleteFirst one must realize
that the inklings of a Jewish state
in the mideast began before
WW2
(The pre-cursor to the UN
was "The League of Nations")
... It was the Horror of the Holocaust and which
eventually led more rapidly to the creation of Israel a homeland
where Jews could go so that they will never be persecuted ...
Now the reason Israel is not
in Germany or the USA etc as The Iranian president wants is because
the original tribes of Jews were
from the area now Israel ...
Just as the first Muslims were not
from the area now called New York City.
One can debate the creation od Israel endlessy ... but I ask all the good open minded Iraqi to examine an analogy with Iraqs
Kurdish population ....
The Kurds have also faced a history
of opression and persecution ....
Suppose Iran/Saddam and Turkey
began the systematic killing
of Kurds ... Kurds being horded
into concentration camps ... their
homes and property stole ...
and then gassed !!!
If an outside power used force
to end the horror would it be so damn awfull if then a portion of
Turkey and Iraq were then made into a separate Kurdish state
where Kurds could gather and feel safe from persecution ???
Yes if such a state were created
by ouside powers it would certainly
for lack of a better term "screw"
many many of the non Kurds that lived in the same area ....
So what is the optimal solution
I do not know ... I am neither Jewish or Kurdish ... but the simple fact is 60 years ago
Israel was created where it is now
for a reason ... That reason has to be recognized and the optimal solution NOW is to negotiate
the final boundaries with a brand new Palestinian State and see where
50 years of peace between the two will lead.
And remember BT 24-Steps Zeyad
if you get sick while in the USA
GO TO A JEWISH DOCTOR
They are the best
And also realize that under
Bush/Sharon The Israelis
left Gaza.
With regard to Jewish entertainers
ReplyDeleteFor the amusement of our Iraqi
guests I suggest they get a copy
of Adam Sandlers Saturday Night
Live Version of his Chanukka(sp?)
Song ... I believe there are two versions the first is the best
Thanks BT for this very thoughtful post! It is especially meaningful to me because some of my ancestors are Jewish. As I understand it, the Jews of Iraq and Iran are a special group that have very ancient roots in both countries. More than 2000 years ago when many Jews were slaves in Babylon, Cyrus the Great of Persia set them free and allowed them to return to their homeland in ancient Israel. Well, apparently some stayed and others emmigrated eastward during the centuries of the Persian empire. I have heard that many Iranian Jews who moved to Israel are not very happy there. I can imagine that the same is true for Iraqi Jews.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, I was brought up with a sort of mild brainwashing about Israel, only I was taught what a great thing the establishment of the State of Israel was. Over the years, though, I have come to be very sympathetic to the legitimate grievances that Palestinians can make against Israel. I abhore the terrorism of the really militant Palestinians, but I equally abhore the killing of innocents and the oppressive group punishment mentality of the Israeli government. All in all, I think that the world would be a better place today if the State of Israel had never come to be. In the future, the State of Israel may not last, at least not in its current incarnation as a "Jewish" State. The population of Palestinian Israel citizens is growing faster than the population of Jewish citizens. Unless the Jews of Israel intend to create an apartied regime within their own borders, they will eventually be outvoted in the Knesset.
Anon 11:57 WELL SAED! :-)
ReplyDeleteWe could, and many will...debate the creation of Israel endlessly, endlessly, endlessly,
Shucks, one could stay in first grade endlessly, endlessly, endlessly and those folks may discover some overlooked and underappreciated facts and points that others miss in their haste to go on and eventually graduate ;-)
We only live in this world once. Thus we should try to make the best use of the precious time we have.
Edo River rising.
well, i suggest you see this:
ReplyDelete'JEWS AND ARABS-THE IRAQI CONNECTION'
you can find the documentary here:
http://www.dschointventschr.ch/dv/stage/filmflyer.php?shortcut=FORGETBAGHDAD&lang=_en
bests!
uhm. the title of that docu is
ReplyDelete'Forget Baghdad'
As for Ahmadinajad’s reinvestigation of the Holocaust, I think this man is trying to destroy the Iranian nation by all means. I understand his hatred to Israel but I don’t understand his attitudes against the Holocaust.
ReplyDeleteyeah exactly, i posted the link because it's just cool to have a palestinian guy fresh out of israeli jail to tell him to shut up. just like those students at university in tehran that burned his picture. it's really a shame that he's given his country such an image because no more people seem to support his government inside his country than outside it.
Treasure and 24,
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your discussion here about the differing approaches that your families took about "education." That is really fascinating to me.
Hope you have a great time during your time off from school.
I found Paul Johnson's book "History of the Jews" to be a very interesting read.
ReplyDelete[24 Steps to Liberty]"But I still blame you and your family. Saddam prevented information, that’s true. But it was your family’s role to educate you. When I went to school, elementary and high school, education didn’t stop there. In fact, education in my family started after school. When I came back home every day, school started. It was my family’s responsibility to correct the information the teachers had to give us."
ReplyDeleteSorry chum, but i think u DON'T have the right to criticise BT's family education. Not all Iraqis were as courageous or as non-challant as yours.
My family also was scared to the bone from Baathis. My father had had a very very nasty experience with them in 1963. He was almost going to be killed at their hands. This has left him with a very big SCAR in his mind even untill the last moments of his life. He was very scared they might pop-up at him even from under his death bed!!
At home he prevented us even from speaking beside the telephone. So please, do NOT ever judge people & do NOT EVER establish yourself or your family ways as THE RULE & all others should follow suite. You do NOT have the right.
---
Saad
BT,
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate this story of your experience in indoctrination and couragous challenge of it.
I was raised here in the states. Small farming town in Iowa. Very Catholic parents and school system. I was probably about 5 years old when one Sunday my mother and I had just left Sunday mass. I recall asking her questions that had arisen in me from listening to the sermon which had apparently been about the Catholic church as the one and only true church and if you weren't Catholic well, tuff shit.
We were driving through town past one of the non-catholic churches and parked on the street are cars I recognize. Cars that belong to neighbors and friends. People we worked with and played with.
So I asked my mom, what about those people? She said, well, they're just lost.
Something in me just knew this was wrong. This could not be the way of a loving God. And so silently to myself I renounced the catholics and temporarily excommunicated myself. I wanted to see if this was really the case. Twelve years in the schools indoctrinated the same idea.
Obviously this didn't happen to me under the same kinds of threats and consequences that you had to endure but I was 5 years old and there was NOBODY I could trust to tell this to. I just had to play the game until I was able to leave home.
It is really sad that this kind of pedigogy is so pervasive throughout the world. Many never, ever find freedom from the hatred and bigotry it breeds. They grow up and do the same things to their own kids.
I'm so glad you freed yourself from the prison.
[Iraqi Mojo]"She recalled the “Farhood al Yahood”, a pogrom against the Iraqi Jews that took place on June 1-2, 1941 where Jews were injured and murdered, Jewish property was looted, and Jewish houses were burnt down.
ReplyDeleteWow I did not know that. 1941?? I thought that Iraqi Jews were mistreated only in the 50s. I had know idea about 1941."
Well u haven't seen nothing yet. All important & difficult moments of Iraq's modern history were blacked-out whether through the monarchy or through the following republican times.... U will not find one single trustworthy reference on these events in Iraq ever.
Example: The rebellion of the Assyrians in 1933, the Army interventions in 1935 in the south or its coup in 1936, the 1941 Army rebellion, the Farhood (which took place after the Army's defeat & no one knows for sure how it began or how it ended- but i have a valuable book relating the events & with accounts of.... the participation of the Iraqi police in it), the Kurdish rebellions, ...etc.
Do u know that the Iraqi Army has once suffered a major defeat at the hands of Mulla Mustapha Al-Barazani in 1966 or -67? Well, i'm sure no one in Iraq knows about it.
---
Saad
[nadia n]"As for Ahmadinajad’s reinvestigation of the Holocaust, I think this man is trying to destroy the Iranian nation by all means. I understand his hatred to Israel but I don’t understand his attitudes against the Holocaust."
ReplyDeleteHi nadia,
U know u shouldn't take a politician's words for granted. These r words or ideas for the local consumption i believe. The western world is making a fuss out of it for obvious reasons. I wouldn't give too much credit to his bla bla in any circumstances. He is a president & i believe he knows what is he doing.
---
Saad
saad i was actually quoting treasure there.
ReplyDeletehis causing a fuss is causing a lot of problems for a lot of people, and helps to discredit legitimate criticisms of israel and people working for justice for palestinians, every time he speaks of israel and denounces the holocaust in the same breath, i don't see who benefits from encouraging this kind of shit at home. least of all iranian jews. it's disgusting, i don't want to be associated with this shit, and i know plenty of iranians that feel the same way. not to mention how he represses minorities and the rights of dissidents in his own country.
any way you look at it, it's just stupid.
Re Nadia 8:28,
ReplyDeleteAbout Amadinijad's denial of the holocaust.
The idea is pretty far out there but I have a theory. You might even call it ridiculous. Certainly woo woo.
Its predicated on the idea that reincarnation is not only possible but is what can and does happen. Most who accept the idea also accept that when you do come back you might be something quite different than you were the last time. Or the time before. Or you might be the same in different clothes so to speak.
We know the nazi's perped the holocaust. Some supported, some were the ones doing the dasterdly deeds. Like Himler for example.
So if reincarnation is something you would consider, go one step further and consider that Amadinidad may be a nazi reincarnated and denying his clupability in the holocaust.
In fact I suspect there is now alot of nazi essence reincarnated in the middle east. That is, afterall, where the Jews, their targets,. migrated to.
As for the denial, Himler was never tried. He committed suicide shortly after arrest. But Hermann Goering, second in command of the Third Reich and commander of the Luftwaffe, is quoted as saying he never was an anti-semite himself, had not believed these atrocities, and that several Jews had offered to testify at Nuremberg in his behalf.
Complete, total denial.
Hi B.T
ReplyDeletevery nice blog, it seems that we have many similar ideas, I think you haven't seen the Iraqi jews yet, they're very nice.
We had also the same attitude inside the family before the war.
Thank you for your nice e-mail, it still there is something wrong with my computer, I'm unable to send mails. anyway, well done and go on.
Good luck
It's a very touching entry. It's very nationalisic. When will we detach, where you were born and were your family settled, from, being as deserving as anyone else to be respected.
ReplyDelete1=1=1=1 1 American is as important as one Iraqi, not because of being Iraqi or American, because they are a person.
There is comfort in having a loyality you can believe in, and can trust in, but that same, Iraqi Jew is OK, leads to not holding the same value for a non Iraqi Jew.
I wish my country America would equate the loss of an Iraqi the same as an American. The deaths this war has caused to the Iraqi's is a 1000 times greater then 9-11.
Imagine there's no Heaven
ReplyDeleteIt's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
When I first truely imagined, no countries or borders, I was horrified. My "safety net" gone.
Why Do I as an American, have the right to feel more safe then an Iraqi.
[24 steps]"But I still blame you and your family. Saddam prevented information, that’s true. But it was your family’s role to educate you."
ReplyDeleteDisgusting point of view. First his family was clearly motivated by love, and you have no right of put it in questioning. Second, BT's blog proves that his education was very good and, most important, that his sense of analysis and criticism was never repressed. So, his fathers prevented him from talking about dangerous issues but managed to keep his sense of judgement intact and you come and say that they didn't fulfill their role as fathers? Come on, man!!
in the previous post: fathers = parents. sorry.
ReplyDeletesaad The western world is making a fuss out of it for obvious reasons.
ReplyDeletenadia n his causing a fuss is causing a lot of problems for a lot of people, and helps to discredit legitimate criticisms of israel
i have to agree w/both of you. it does seem like he is feeding a fire. on the other hand i think it is important to acknowledge the western world in distorting his already problematic position.
for example, the statement 'wiped off the face of the map' has been reported over and over again because somehow for reasons we can all ponder the real translation of what he said ""the occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" just wasn't threatening enough for people who strive to justify attacking iran. saying a regime must vanish is much different and there are many here in america and across the world, myself included who might wish the current regime in washingtom could also vanish!
i think what he was referring to is zionism which is much different than the concept of israel for many people (myself included) this is a very very hot topic becuase many people feel true democracy can never exist in israel in conjunction w/zionism.
the push for a new middle east where the regions are all separated by sect is an example of the idea of zionist goals. there are many jews who are anti zionist inside israel and around the world and certainly anti zionists are not by any means rare. they do not wish for the destruction of israel. they wish for a peaceful state for all the inhabitants.
The One-State Solution: A Breakthrough for Peace in the Israeli-Palestinian Deadlock is a book that comes highly recommended, i have not read it. from the comments if you scroll.
Few people are as qualified to write about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the author of this book. She is a professor of political science with a PhD from the university of Wisconsin with special emphasis on ethnic conflict. Further, Dr. Tilley has had twenty years direct experience with this conflict, including living there for two years. The book, is scholarly, well-documented, and illustrated with maps. It can serve as an excellent background for this conflict, and includes a discussion of the important international actors: the Zionist movement, the Arab States, the United States of America, Europe, and the United Nations.....
......another
I first heard about this book from friends who are angry about it, so I figured I wouldn't bother with it. After all, only some seriously ignorant ideologue would think a one-state solution for this conflict could ever work, right? But then one of my uncles, who happens to be a Holocaust survivor, told me to read it and not have preconceptions, and that it had given him hope for the first time in years.....
it's hard to even think about israel without thinking about palestine. this is a huge problem that cannot be solved by pointing fingers.
ahmadinajad�s should back off and at the same time be very weary of a neighbor that calls for an attack on it, which israel is pushing for and i think they should back off too. our press here in the US totally demonizes iran and is completely pro zionist/israel. it's not easy as a mere member of the pubic to get a balanced view under these circumstances. Israel is the hottest topic to discuss anywhere because a mere mention of criticism lands one unfairly in the very racist catagory of anti semite which completely deflects the ability to discuss zionists pros or cons under neutral grounds. ever wonder who benefits from that?
BT you wrote "Generation after generation was taught to hate the “Jews”, all the Jews."
ReplyDeleteThat does not reflect the Iraq I lived in, not Amarah nor Baghdad. It does not reflect the Iraq my father grew up in either. All the years I lived in Iraq I knew very well the definition of Zionism as an ideology. And that many Jews were against it. It was not a hidden subject to talk about in my family nor among the people I spent my days with in school or university. Same country and two so extremely different experiences.
Nadia writes
ReplyDelete''''BT you wrote "Generation after generation was taught to hate the “Jews”, all the Jews."
That does not reflect the Iraq I lived in, not Amarah nor Baghdad'''
I can see what you are both saying having witnessed the Northern Ireland situation
Some families would hate protistents, some would hate catholics and some just wished everyone could get on
Also, I'm english living in Scotland, some Scots are brought up to hate the English, some are not...
You just lived in a family that chose to make it an iddue, I'm sure around dinner tables worldwide, you have varying opinions on what the discussions are about
Maybe I'm wrong, has been known!
Kind regards
Steve
Steve, BT wrote "I was like most teenagers whose main source of news was Saddam’s regime’s media outlets and school curricula. They all denounced the “Jews”."
ReplyDeleteYou see that is very strange to me.
I too studied there, I too lived there and read newspapers but for me it was clear it was the Zionist movement that was critized. It was the illegal occupation of Palestinians that was criitzed. As it is critized by many people all over the world. For me it’s a political issue nothing else.
Pro Zionist people are many and just in Swedish forums you see them doing all they can to make it that if you criticize Zionism and the illegal occupation of Palestinians it means you hate Jews. It’s their only argument and it has been used for decades. So since most of the masses in the Arab world are against the occupation therefore they say Arabs hate Jews. Very strange analogy indeed. Most Iraqis are against the US occupation of Iraq does this mean soon we'll here US people arguing that Iraqis hate Christians since most of the US people are Christians? I doubt it.
I asked my Swedish mother once about her experience in Iraq about "Arab hating Jews????" and she said not once since her first visit to Iraq in the 70: s did she ever experice that the criticism of Israel's illegal occupation was becouse of hate towards the Jews. As me the criticism is based on an illegal occupation, apartheid similar rules meaning it is political criticism based on facts that Israel is occupying the Palestinian and Israel still have not fulfilled UN resolution 181 from 1947.
When I was in Egypt I spent a week with an Egyptian man who fought Israel in the 1967 war. NOT once did he say a bad thing about Jews. However he was and still is very much against the illegal occupation of the Palestine’s.
Just yesterday I was called a Jew hater for being against the Israeli occupation and asking about "where is Israelis international boarder the Israeli govemtt refers to when it speaks of recognizing Israel?" Suddenly I was a Jew hater. I gave the example that I recently bought a summer house and one of the most important things in the contract was “the borders of the property”. Don’t build on your neighbours property etc etc. Borders are international so what are Israel’s International borders? The only one I know are the ones from 1947 and that Israel have put into the bin.
Saddam was never my fan, but when he talked about the Palestine/Israeli conflict I understood that he was against Zionism against the occupation nothing more or less.
It’s absolutely as you said different families’ different discussions but the society I and BT lived in was the same. And my experience in Iraq was that it was political reasons why people were against the occupation of Palestine nothing else.
As for “some Scots are brought up to hate the English, some are not...” I noticed that when I was in Dundee recently : )
Congratulations. Now all you have to do is wrap your mind around the fact that if Israeli soldiers shoot or imprison Palestinian terrorists who are shooting rockets at civilians, blowing up school buses of children, and creating lying videotapes of fictitious massacres, then that is self-defense and not "Zionism".
ReplyDeleteAnd *then* maybe you'll understand why the international community is now so reluctant to even look at the dreadful Palestinians -- men, women AND children -- let alone help or fund them. Because they brought whatever happens to them upon themselves with their deranged intifada, and terrorism masquerading as protest.
Baby steps for you.
Nadia confesses...
ReplyDeleteAs for “some Scots are brought up to hate the English, some are not...” I noticed that when I was in Dundee recently : )
Well why didnt you tell me, me and my family only live 15 miles from Dundee!
Regards
Steve
Nadia, you are being very disingenuous if you're trying to make us believe there isn't widespread hatred of "the Jews" in the Middle East. You're trying to argue it's all just a political argument about "Zionists" in Israel and doesn't extend to all Jews. I'm not buying it. I've heard of and read enough Jew-hatred emanating from the Middle East that is not connected to the political situation in Israel.
ReplyDeleteJust one tiny example is the widespread belief in the Middle East after 9/11 that, as the rumor went, something like "4,000 Jews stayed home from work on 9/11" because they knew about the attack beforehand (under this scenario, the attack was orchestrated by the Mossad). This rumor posits that no Jews died at the WTC. I saw polls after 9/11 that showed how widespread this belief was in the Middle East. Those rumors have nothing to do with the political situation in Israel and hatred of the "occupation". That rumor is saying that "Jews" (not Israelis, American Jews) are so evil and inhuman that 4,000 of them would know of an imminent attack, stay home to save themselves and not ONE of them would warn their colleagues, friends or neighbors. The fact that this scenario was readily believed by many in the Middle East says a lot about their feelings about "the Jews" and it has nothing to do with Israel.
[NahnCee]"Congratulations. Now all you have to do is wrap your mind around the fact that if Israeli soldiers shoot or imprison Palestinian terrorists who are shooting rockets at civilians, blowing up school buses of children, and creating lying videotapes of fictitious massacres, then that is self-defense and not "Zionism"."
ReplyDeleteTell me NahnCee, why is your country occupying the Palestinian homeland?
Why is your country refusing the establishment of a Palestinian State there?
Why has your country kidnapped Palestinian activists & emprisoned them without a trial (i.e. Marwan Barghouthi)?
Why did your country commit crimes against humanity by killing civilians using snipers or helicopters (i.e. Sheikh Yassin a crippled elderly man, or complete neighbourhoods razed during Isareli incursions in Jenin & after)?
Why did your country break international law by building a WALL?
Why is your country sending settlers to kick the Palestinian legitimate owners out & occupy their land with the force of the Israeli Army?
Why did your country massacre & murder Palestinian civilians in the 40s (Kafr Qassem), 50s (Deir Yassin) & afterwards?
Why did your country unabashadely cause the creation of the refugee problem & is hindering all attempts to find a just solution to it?
Why, why & many many endless other whys would follow. & still u try to fool us with your stupid amnesiac comment. U think that a people that has ACCUMULATED all these injustices in a 100 years would stop just like that from shooting rockets at your like?
U will have to look at the REAL reasons dear & also look at yourself before trying to roam in the comment sections & lose your reason & credibility.
---
Saad
[NahnCee]"Congratulations. Now all you have to do is wrap your mind around the fact that if Israeli soldiers shoot or imprison Palestinian terrorists who are shooting rockets at civilians, blowing up school buses of children, and creating lying videotapes of fictitious massacres, then that is self-defense and not "Zionism"."
ReplyDeleteTell me NahnCee, why is your country occupying the Palestinian homeland?
Why is your country refusing the establishment of a Palestinian State there?
Why has your country kidnapped Palestinian activists & emprisoned them without a trial (i.e. Marwan Barghouthi)?
Why did your country commit crimes against humanity by killing civilians using snipers or helicopters (i.e. Sheikh Yassin a crippled elderly man, or complete neighbourhoods razed during Isareli incursions in Jenin & after)?
Why did your country break international law by building a WALL?
Why is your country sending settlers to kick the Palestinian legitimate owners out & occupy their land with the force of the Israeli Army?
Why did your country massacre & murder Palestinian civilians in the 40s (Kafr Qassem), 50s (Deir Yassin) & afterwards?
Why did your country unabashadely cause the creation of the refugee problem & is hindering all attempts to find a just solution to it?
Why, why & many many endless other whys would follow. & still u try to fool us with your stupid amnesiac comment. U think that a people that has ACCUMULATED all these injustices in a 100 years would stop just like that from shooting rockets at your like?
U will have to look at the REAL reasons dear & also look at yourself before trying to roam in the comment sections & lose your reason & credibility.
---
Saad
[Mark]"Just one tiny example is the widespread belief in the Middle East after 9/11 that, as the rumor went, something like "4,000 Jews stayed home from work on 9/11" because they knew about the attack beforehand (under this scenario, the attack was orchestrated by the Mossad)."
ReplyDeleteMark, i don't know if u r serious with this over-blowing of the question of the jews & 9/11 or r u joking? I remind u that even in America such rumours persist of the Jews' control of the American media & the world! So here u didn't bring us something new.
The hard anti-jew feelings in the ME ARE political. They r first popular in reaction to the situation of the Palestinian people in Palestine. But it stops to that here.
U have surely noticed that there NEVER r any anti-jew pogroms in the Arab countries following the situation in Palestine. So u open your mind & stop spilling nonsense please. Ok?
---
Saad
Oh holy moses,
ReplyDeleteI promised myself I wouldn't post on this topic
I have seen Jews get away with murder (literally)and innocent civilians get murdered, the whole region is a hot bed of bollocks
When a democratic system produced 'Hamas' as its leading party, and then the west denounced this as NOT ACCEPTABLE !! 'Hamas are terrorists' - sanctions sanctions sanction
And back in downtown Iraq we are trying to install the very same democratic system, what happens when Iraq votes in a party that the west doesn't like, more and more sanctions ???
Me and RhusLancia have just had a debate on the previous post, we agree to disagree on the whole, but he mentioned how Saddam basically put sanctions on his own people post 1991
Starve em, blow em up, kidnap em, shoot em, deprive em .... someone has to stop the whole stupid situation and stop the hatered and stupidity
Palestine, syria, jordon, israel, lebannon and Iraq - which is the odd one out?
And why ?
And folk wonder why a lot of Arabs dislike the West
Its a funny old world you know
Kind regards
Steve
To Nadia,
ReplyDeleteHere r the latest news from Iran. It seems that Ahmadi Najad's followers have lost the control of the localities.
If this shows anything, it shows that there an Iranian public opinion that does not agree with Ahmedi Najad's policies.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/16/world/main2274416.shtml
---
Saad
Oops sorry, here is the link again,
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2006/12/16/world/main2274416.shtml
---
Saad
Because they brought whatever happens to them upon themselves
ReplyDeletenot quite, sorry, your shit ain't flyin' w/me
i mentioned earlier pointing fingers is not going to lead to a solution. if you want to point fingers i can play that game. do you want solutions, or do you want resolution? there is an obvious advantage for zionists to NOT seek resolutions, it means you don't have to give an inch as you tighen a grip that is suffocationing a people ina slow drawn out genocide while the world watches. if you do seek resolution it means you must give up something you had no right to take to begin with, in other words retreat. you can only pulverize a society for so long before you loose your image as victim which has served israel for a long long time.
stop pointing fingers and look at your own culpability. if you want resolution focus on it, demand it from your leaders instead of starving and pulverizing your opponents.
"Well why didnt you tell me, me and my family only live 15 miles from Dundee!Regards Steve"
ReplyDeleteHonestly Steve I did think about it more then once! Hopefully next time when we vist Dundee for pleasure and not for a hospital treatment as it was this time. :o)
My brother-in-law is doing his best to be part of the European Golf Tour, so we might end up at St.Andrews giving him support one day!!!
Sorry for the oftopic BT : )
"U have surely noticed that there NEVER r any anti-jew pogroms in the Arab countries following the situation in Palestine."
ReplyDeleteHa! Because the "anti-Jew pogroms" happened already years ago and there are hardly any Jews left in Arab lands to harrass.
Saad, what are you smoking? I want some.
Nadia, Annie, Saad add me at gmail standrewsgolf@gmail.com or msn is steve@scotlandgolftouring.com if you so wish
ReplyDeletegetting quickly back on track
Mr Anon spouted out
Saad, what are you smoking? I want some.
At $100 for half an ounce you can get some !
Kind regards
Steve
Thank you so much for the link Saad!
ReplyDelete... and so without even asking me or any other Iraqi for permission, which is the least of things when u bust in a country with or without UN mandate (or maybe did they arrange that with their puppet Govt BEHIND my back), the Americans have transformed my country into a Gitmo bis, without me knowing it. Throwing in it whoever they like, torturing, denying legal rights, ...etc. Just like in the other one in Cuba.
ReplyDeleteAnd still some jerks in this comment section want me to be happy that the Americans r "helping" my country. So i should shut up, be GRATEFUL they r there & moreover refrain from demanding their departure...
But they r helping in what? Oppressing people? Shooting them on sight? Raping 14 year olds & then attempting to burn away the evidence? Helping convicts run away from prison, or training sectarian thugs take over the country so that they would find a pretext to on & on & on???
Read below from the NYT, (sorry for the long post)
December 18, 2006
Former U.S. Detainee in Iraq Recalls Torment
By MICHAEL MOSS
One night in mid-April, the steel door clanked shut on detainee No. 200343 at Camp Cropper, the United States military’s maximum-security detention site in Baghdad.
American guards arrived at the man’s cell periodically over the next several days, shackled his hands and feet, blindfolded him and took him to a padded room for interrogation, the detainee said. After an hour or two, he was returned to his cell, fatigued but unable to sleep.
The fluorescent lights in his cell were never turned off, he said. At most hours, heavy metal or country music blared in the corridor. He said he was rousted at random times without explanation and made to stand in his cell. Even lying down, he said, he was kept from covering his face to block out the light, noise and cold. And when he was released after 97 days he was exhausted, depressed and scared.
Detainee 200343 was among thousands of people who have been held and released by the American military in Iraq, and his account of his ordeal has provided one of the few detailed views of the Pentagon’s detention operations since the abuse scandals at Abu Ghraib. Yet in many respects his case is unusual.
The detainee was Donald Vance, a 29-year-old Navy veteran from Chicago who went to Iraq as a security contractor. He wound up as a whistle-blower, passing information to the F.B.I. about suspicious activities at the Iraqi security firm where he worked, including what he said was possible illegal weapons trading.
But when American soldiers raided the company at his urging, Mr. Vance and another American who worked there were detained as suspects by the military, which was unaware that Mr. Vance was an informer, according to officials and military documents.
At Camp Cropper, he took notes on his imprisonment and smuggled them out in a Bible.
“Sick, very. Vomited,” he wrote July 3. The next day: “Told no more phone calls til leave.”
Nathan Ertel, the American held with Mr. Vance, brought away military records that shed further light on the detention camp and its secretive tribunals. Those records include a legal memorandum explicitly denying detainees the right to a lawyer at detention hearings to determine whether they should be released or held indefinitely, perhaps for prosecution.
The story told through those records and interviews illuminates the haphazard system of detention and prosecution that has evolved in Iraq, where detainees are often held for long periods without charges or legal representation, and where the authorities struggle to sort through the endless stream of detainees to identify those who pose real threats.
“Even Saddam Hussein had more legal counsel than I ever had,” said Mr. Vance, who said he planned to sue the former defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld, on grounds that his constitutional rights had been violated. “While we were detained, we wrote a letter to the camp commandant stating that the same democratic ideals we are trying to instill in the fledgling democratic country of Iraq, from simple due process to the Magna Carta, we are absolutely, positively refusing to follow ourselves.”
A spokeswoman for the Pentagon’s detention operations in Iraq, First Lt. Lea Ann Fracasso, said in written answers to questions that the men had been “treated fair and humanely,” and that there was no record of either man complaining about their treatment.
Held as ‘a Threat’
She said officials did not reach Mr. Vance’s contact at the F.B.I. until he had been in custody for three weeks. Even so, she said, officials determined that he “posed a threat” and decided to continue holding him. He was released two months later, Lieutenant Fracasso said, based on a “subsequent re-examination of his case,” and his stated plans to leave Iraq.
Mr. Ertel, 30, a contract manager who knew Mr. Vance from an earlier job in Iraq, was released more quickly.
Mr. Vance went to Iraq in 2004, first to work for a Washington-based company. He later joined a small Baghdad-based security company where, he said, “things started looking weird to me.” He said that the company, which was protecting American reconstruction organizations, had hired guards from a sheik in Basra and that many of them turned out to be members of militias whom the clients did not want around.
Mr. Vance said the company had a growing cache of weapons it was selling to suspicious customers, including a steady flow of officials from the Iraqi Interior Ministry. The ministry had ties to violent militias and death squads. He said he had also witnessed another employee giving American soldiers liquor in exchange for bullets and weapon repairs.
On a visit to Chicago in October 2005, Mr. Vance met twice with an F.B.I. agent who set up a reporting system. Weekly, Mr. Vance phoned the agent from Iraq and sent him e-mail messages. “It was like, ‘Hey, I heard this and I saw this.’ I wanted to help,” Mr. Vance said. A government official familiar with the arrangement confirmed Mr. Vance’s account.
In April, Mr. Ertel and Mr. Vance said, they felt increasingly uncomfortable at the company. Mr. Ertel resigned and company officials seized the identification cards that both men needed to move around Iraq or leave the country.
On April 15, feeling threatened, Mr. Vance phoned the United States Embassy in Baghdad. A military rescue team rushed to the security company. Again, Mr. Vance described its operations, according to military records.
“Internee Vance indicated a large weapons cache was in the compound in the house next door,” Capt. Plymouth D. Nelson, a military detention official, wrote in a memorandum dated April 22, after the men were detained. “A search of the house and grounds revealed two large weapons caches.”
On the evening of April 15, they met with American officials at the embassy and stayed overnight. But just before dawn, they were awakened, handcuffed with zip ties and made to wear goggles with lenses covered by duct tape. Put into a Humvee, Mr. Vance said he asked for a vest and helmet, and was refused.
They were driven through dangerous Baghdad roads and eventually to Camp Cropper. They were placed in cells at Compound 5, the high-security unit where Saddam Hussein has been held.
Only days later did they receive an explanation: They had become suspects for having associated with the people Mr. Vance tried to expose.
“You have been detained for the following reasons: You work for a business entity that possessed one or more large weapons caches on its premises and may be involved in the possible distribution of these weapons to insurgent/terrorist groups,” Mr. Ertel’s detention notice said.
Mr. Vance said he began seeking help even before his cell door closed for the first time. “They took off my blindfold and earmuffs and told me to stand in a corner, where they cut off the zip ties, and told me to continue looking straight forward and as I’m doing this, I’m asking for an attorney,” he said. “ ‘I want an attorney now,’ I said, and they said, ‘Someone will be here to see you.’ ”
Instead, they were given six-digit ID numbers. The guards shortened Mr. Vance’s into something of a nickname: “343.” And the routine began.
Bread and powdered drink for breakfast and sometimes a piece of fruit. Rice and chicken for lunch and dinner. Their cells had no sinks. The showers were irregular. They got 60 minutes in the recreation yard at night, without other detainees.
Five times in the first week, guards shackled the prisoners’ hands and feet, covered their eyes, placed towels over their heads and put them in wheelchairs to be pushed to a room with a carpeted ceiling and walls. There they were questioned by an array of officials who, they said they were told, represented the F.B.I., the C.I.A., the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and the Defense Intelligence Agency.
“It’s like boom, boom, boom,” Mr. Ertel said. “They are drilling you. ‘We know you did this, you are part of this gun smuggling thing.’ And I’m saying you have it absolutely way off.”
The two men slept in their 9-by-9-foot cells on concrete slabs, with worn three-inch foam mats. With the fluorescent lights on and the temperature in the 50s, Mr. Vance said, “I paced myself to sleep, walking until I couldn’t anymore. I broke the straps on two pair of flip-flops.”
Asked about the lights, the detainee operations spokeswoman said that the camp’s policy was to turn off cell lights at night “to allow detainees to sleep.”
A Psychological Game
One day, Mr. Vance met with a camp psychologist. “He realized I was having difficulties,” Mr. Vance said. “He said to turn it into a game. He said: ‘I want you to pretend you are a soldier who has been kidnapped, and that you still have a duty to do. Memorize everything you can about everything that happens to you. Make it like you are a spy on the inside.’ I think he called it rational emotive behavioral therapy, and I started doing that.”
Camp Rule 31 barred detainees from writing on the white cell walls, which were bare except for a black crescent moon painted on one wall to indicate the direction of Mecca for prayers. But Mr. Vance began keeping track of the days by making hash marks on the wall, and he also began writing brief notes that he hid in the Bible given to him by guards.
“Turned in request for dentist + phone + embassy letter + request for clothes,” he wrote one day.
“Boards,” he wrote April 24, the day he and Mr. Ertel went before Camp Cropper’s Detainee Status Board.
Their legal rights, laid out in a letter from Lt. Col. Bradley J. Huestis of the Army, the president of the status board, allowed them to attend the hearing and testify. However, under Rule 3, the letter said, “You do not have the right to legal counsel, but you may have a personal representative assist you at the hearing if the personal representative is reasonably available.”
Mr. Vance and Mr. Ertel were permitted at their hearings only because they were Americans, Lieutenant Fracasso said. The cases of all other detainees are reviewed without the detainees present, she said. In both types of cases, defense lawyers are not allowed to attend because the hearings are not criminal proceedings, she said.
Lieutenant Fracasso said that currently there were three Americans in military custody in Iraq. The military does not identify detainees.
Mr. Vance and Mr. Ertel had separate hearings. They said their requests to be each other’s personal representative had been denied.
At the hearings, a woman and two men wearing Army uniforms but no name tags or rank designations sat a table with two stacks of documents. One was about an inch thick, and the men were allowed to see some papers from that stack. The other pile was much thicker, but they were told that this pile was evidence only the board could see.
The men pleaded with the board. “I’m telling them there has been a major mix-up,” Mr. Ertel said. “Please, I’m out of my mind. I haven’t slept. I’m not eating. I’m terrified.”
Mr. Vance said he implored the board to delve into his laptop computer and cellphone for his communications with the F.B.I. agent in Chicago.
Each of the hearings lasted about two hours, and the men said they never saw the board again.
“At the end, my first question was, ‘Does my family know I’m alive?’ and the lead man said, ‘I don’t know,’ ” Mr. Vance recounted. “And then I asked when will we have an answer, and they said on average it takes three to four weeks.”
Help From the Outside
About a week later, two weeks into his detention, Mr. Vance was allowed to make his first call, to Chicago. He called his fiancée, Diane Schwarz, who told him she had thought he might have died.
“It was very overwhelming,” Ms. Schwarz recalls of the 12-minute conversation. “He wasn’t quite sure what was going on, and was kind of turning to me for answers and I was turning to him for the same.”
She had already been calling members of Congress, alarmed by his disappearance. So was Mr. Ertel’s mother, and some officials began pressing for answers. “I would appreciate your looking into this matter,” Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois wrote to a State Department official in early May.
On May 7, the Camp Cropper detention board met again, without either man present, and determined that Mr. Ertel was “an innocent civilian,” according to the spokeswoman for detention operations. It took authorities 18 more days to release him.
Mr. Vance’s situation was more complicated. On June 17, Lt. Col. Keir-Kevin Curry, a spokesman for the American military’s detention unit, Task Force 134, wrote to tell Ms. Schwarz that Mr. Vance was still being held. “The detainee board reviewed his case and recommended he remain interned,” he wrote. “Multi-National Force-Iraq approved the board’s recommendation to continue internment. Therefore, Mr. Vance continues to be a security detainee. We are not processing him for release. His case remains under investigation and there is no set timetable for completion.” Over the following weeks, Mr. Vance said he made numerous written requests — for a lawyer, for blankets, for paper to write letters home. Mr. Vance said that he wrote 10 letters to Ms. Schwarz, but that only one made it to Chicago. Dated July 17, it was delivered late last month by the Red Cross.
“Diana, start talking, sending e-mail and letters and faxes to the alderman, mayor, governor, congressman, senators, Red Cross, Amnesty International, A.C.L.U., Vatican, and other Christian-based organizations. Everyone!” he wrote. “I am missing you so much, and am so depressed it’s a daily struggle here. My life is in your hands. Please don’t get discouraged. Don’t take ‘No’ for answers. Keep working. I have to tell myself these things every day, but I can’t do anything from a cell.”
The military has never explained why it continued to consider Mr. Vance a security threat, except to say that officials decided to release him after further review of his case.
“Treating an American citizen in this fashion would have been unimaginable before 9/11,” said Mike Kanovitz, a Chicago lawyer representing Mr. Vance.
On July 20, Mr. Vance wrote in his notes: “Told ‘Leaving Today.’ Took shower and shaved, saw doctor, got civ clothes back and passport.”
On his way out, Mr. Vance said: “They asked me if I was intending to write a book, would I talk to the press, would I be thinking of getting an attorney. I took it as, ‘Shut up, don’t talk about this place,’ and I kept saying, ‘No sir, I want to go home.’ ”
Mr. Ertel has returned to Baghdad, again working as a contracts manager. Mr. Vance is back in Chicago, still feeling the effects of having been a prisoner of the war in Iraq.
“It’s really hard,” he says. “I don’t really talk about this stuff with my family. I feel ashamed, depressed, still have nightmares, and I’d even say I suffer from some paranoia.”
---
Saad
Ahaaa u big liar :) U got yourself into your own trap! The articles from your link shows NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of the pogroms as being undertaken in relation with the events in Palestine. U try to fool the readers here or what? Sorry chum. FAILED ATTEMPT!
ReplyDeleteAs for the events itself, of course the real culprits will never tell u of their crimes. & so i don't expect the Mossad to admit his dirty deeds in Iraq or anywhere else anytime now.
Remains the question of smoking. Unlike u, i would rather remain clear-minded to controle the subjects i treat. Smoking is bad for the health & the clearness of the brains.
But if u like to smoke while trying to get s.th. useful, well that's your problem. U can always go see Steve of the Gulf above. I think his offer is still standing.
---
Saad
"As for the events itself, of course the real culprits will never tell u of their crimes. & so i don't expect the Mossad to admit his dirty deeds in Iraq or anywhere else anytime now."
ReplyDeleteQ.E.D.
Thanks for proving my point, Saad.
Nadia, you are being very disingenuous if you're trying to make us believe there isn't widespread hatred of "the Jews" in the Middle East. You're trying to argue it's all just a political argument about "Zionists" in Israel and doesn't extend to all Jews. I'm not buying it. I've heard of and read enough Jew-hatred emanating from the Middle East that is not connected to the political situation in Israel.
ReplyDeleteright mark, there's no holocaust denial in europe or by white nationalists in the united states either, i suppose you think the arabs invented it and exported it elsewhere. i suppose you also think that everyone in the middle east supports their leaders(and for what it's worth even ahmadinejad and nasrallah always refer to israel as the zionist entity, not yehudi or jews). how many arab countries have you been to by the way?
You're trying to argue it's all just a political argument about "Zionists" in Israel and doesn't extend to all Jews.
ReplyDeletehey nadia, don't feel special, this is the official line for anyone criticizing zionism no matter where you are on the globe.
The trajectory of a long-running campaign that gave birth this month to the preposterous all-party British parliamentary report into anti-Semitism in the UK can be traced back to intensive lobbying by the Israeli government that began more than four years ago, in early 2002.
At that time, as Ariel Sharon was shredding the tattered remains of the Oslo accords by reinvading West Bank towns handed over to the Palestinian Authority in his destructive rampage known as Operation Defensive Shield, he drafted the Israeli media into the fray. Local newspapers began endlessly highlighting concerns about the rise of a "new anti-Semitism", a theme that was rapidly and enthusiastically taken up by the muscular Zionist lobby in the US.
It was not the first time, of course, that Israel had called on American loyalists to help it out of trouble. In Beyond Chutzpah, Norman Finkelstein documents the advent of claims about a new anti-Semitism to Israel's lacklustre performance in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. On that occasion, it was hoped, the charge of anti-Semitism could be deployed against critics to reduce pressure on Israel to return Sinai to Egypt and negotiate with the Palestinians.
Israel alerted the world to another wave of anti-Semitism in the early 1980s, just as it came under unprecedented criticism for its invasion and occupation of Lebanon. What distinguished the new anti-Semitism from traditional anti-Jewish racism of the kind that led to Germany's death camps, said its promoters, was that this time it embraced the progressive left rather than the far right.
The fresh claims about a new anti-Semitism began life in the spring of 2002, with the English-language website of Israel's respected liberal daily newspaper, Haaretz, flagging for many months a special online supplement of articles on the "New anti-Semitism", warning that the "age-old hatred" was being revived in Europe and America. The refrain was soon taken up the Jerusalem Post, a rightwing English-language newspaper regularly used by the Israeli establishment to shore up support for its policies among Diaspora Jews.
Like its precursors, argued Israel's apologists, the latest wave of anti-Semitism was the responsibility of Western progressive movements -- though with a fresh twist. An ever-present but largely latent Western anti-Semitism was being stoked into frenzy by the growing political and intellectual influence of extremist Muslim immigrants. The implication was that an unholy alliance had been spawned between the left and militant Islam.
Such views were first aired by senior members of Sharon's cabinet. In an interview in the Jerusalem Post in November 2002, for example, Binyamin Netanyahu warned that latent anti-Semitism was again becoming active:
"In my view, there are many in Europe who oppose anti-Semitism, and many governments and leaders who oppose anti-Semitism, but the strain exists there. It is ignoring reality to say that it is not present. It has now been wedded to and stimulated by the more potent and more overt force of anti-Semitism, which is Islamic anti-Semitism coming from some of the Islamic minorities in European countries. This is often disguised as anti-Zionism."
i suggest reading the whole aticle. a few months ago i read about a shout out to pro israel bloggers to join a database run out of their foreign affairs office to combat negative discourse on israel. i went there on line, anyone can sign up. their position is that anti zionist is just a fancy way to get around anti semitism but it is so associated w/it that the term shouldn't be used at all. their suggestion? just say you are anti israel! see where this is going?
there is a diary at daily kos (the most heavilty trafficed dem/left blog in the US) where an argument takes place about the use of the term anti zionist. to truley get a sense of how heavily this 'term' is lobbied against check out the comment section of this excellent diary about Jeff Halper’s article, 'The Problem with Israel', and read the article too btw. diaries about israel get absolutely slammed at this blog as it is highly monitored because of its popularity.
anyway, what the 'official ' position boils down to is that anyone who doesn't support the zionist veiw wants israel anihaleted! it's insane.
if you criticize israel foriegn policy, you are a racist!
Hi Nadia!
ReplyDelete“That does not reflect the Iraq I lived in, not Amarah nor Baghdad.”
I might have not been very specific but I was talking about the period from 1980 to 2003. I am talking about my generation and the generations that came next. If scroll up to what Saad and “I miss Iraq” said, you’ll see how that issue was the same. I am telling you. As a child in 1980s and a teenager in the 1990s, I was taught to hate the Jews in school. We were taught that the all the Jews are Israelis. Even when Saddam hit Israel, we-the young generation- were so happy and we were taught how “the great leader” hit the “Jews”!! The flyers and the graffiti we had were specifically against the “Jews” not “Israelis” or “Zionists” or whatever they are called.
Today, there are children in some Iraqi areas are taught how to hate the Americans. They are called “The Jews” because they still have these pictures of the Israeli soldiers beating the Palestinians relating it to what happened in areas like Hadeetha and Mahmoudiya and some other areas.
So, it’s a big issue!
People in Iraq should know the difference. When I was in Iraq interviewing people, they think that the Americans are Jews. Of course not all of the people.
“It does not reflect the Iraq my father grew up in either”
Same here. My parents had a lot of Iraqi Jewish friends who were so sad to be separated from.
“You see that is very strange to me.”
It’s strange for me too. Because I remember very well how the Baathist professors who taught “National Education” used to refer to the Zionists as the Jews. Maybe that wasn’t the case in your school but there are a lot of people who have experienced the same thing like me.
“So since most of the masses in the Arab world are against the occupation therefore they say Arabs hate Jews.”
C’mon Nadia! Have you seen how the Palestinians themselves call the Israelis? They always show up on TV and say “The Jews bulldozered our house.” Or “The Jews killed my son”. They don’t say the Zionists or the Israelis. What about the Jews who are against the State of Israel? Are they supposed to be counted with the Israelis??
Even Jihadists call their enemies by names like “The Jews and the Christians” whom they consider infidels! Why don’t they be specific and say who’s their real enemy? They say that because they want to brainwash the Arabs and tell them that the Jews and the Christians are your enemies instead of saying the Israelis and the Americans are the ones!! You got what I mean?
“Very strange analogy indeed. Most Iraqis are against the US occupation of Iraq does this mean soon we'll here US people arguing that Iraqis hate Christians since most of the US people are Christians? I doubt it.”
Nadia! I know people in Iraq who hate Americans to death and that’s why extremists attacked churches in Iraq. They did that because 1: because most Americans are Christians and 2: because they think Christians are already infidels.
Iraq is not the same Iraq you used to live in and it is not the same Iraq that I left in July 2006. It is changing everyday towards the worse, not the better with everything starting from teaching the children.
Read this Newsweek article here
Baghdad’s last synagogue has been locked up since March 2003, two weeks before the American invasion. Most of the remaining Jews are too elderly to leave, and the “acting rabbi,” Emad Levy, 38, the youngest of the group, says he plans to leave after selling off assets too difficult to take with him. "I don't think many [Jewish] people will apply to come back," he told NEWSWEEK by e-mail. "They asked me how it was here and I told them it was very dangerous. The people are uneducated here and hate the Jews."
This is said by an Iraqi Jew who lives in Iraq. Of course, I don’t support his description of Iraqis as “uneducated” but I believe that they are uneducated concerning the Jews and Zionists thing. If Iraqis are uneducated, we would have not had this argument which is a very good reflection that Iraqis are educated and can discuss things whether they agree or disagree.
BT I lived in iraq in the 80s and my experience is not the same as yours.
ReplyDeleteHi again BT!
ReplyDeleteRegarding: Words being shouted out while you are getting your house bulldozed and having world media in your face.
BT if a black man started bulldozing houses in a white neighbourhood in the US what do you think the white mother of the house will be shouting while she sees her house being destroyed? I would think she would most likely say a lot of things that would NEVER EVER have been said had that man come in with a bowl of sweets instead.
I remember 11th of September how they showed a few Palestinians dancing mostly kids. The reports I got from people in the occupied areas was that people understood that it could happen but that it still was wrong. Did that message come out in for example the Swedish media? NO.
Three years in one of Baghdad’s collages I saw a lecturer who happened to be Jewish. I was not in one of his classes; the only thing that made me aware of him was his cute hat (not sure what it is called). Three years and not once did I hear anyone say a bad thing about him because he was Jewish. That is just one of many of my experiences in Iraq in this topic we are talking about.
Ladies, gents, boys and girls
ReplyDeleteMy light hearted comments about smoking illegal substences in reply to someone sacracticly wanting something Saad was smoking (who doesn't smoke) and I dared to suggest buying some for $100
for the avoidance of doubt
1/ This was not purchasable from myself
2/ Saad does not smoke
3/ smoking is very bad for you
Kind regards
Steve
p.s I do smoke, and really enjoyed smoking herbs out of a very funny thing when in the middle east, but they tell me that was ok....
I think it was chopped parsley, mint and thyme, and made me feel very funny after I smoked it, bit like being drunk without a hangover
Speaking of doing naughty things
Drinking, I admire Iraqis, Bahrainis and Kuwaitis as they serve beer and have bars, Saudi Arabians chopped your head off if you were doing such bad things, or stoned (not the smoking variety) you -I'm being over dramatic before the Saudis get upset at me
Beer, smoking and being overweight is an essential part of being a Westerner
Sorry Treasure, this has naff all to do with zionism and jews, but needed to clear up the smoking issue before the cops come to my door
Regards (again)
Steve
Anon 8:59 "Why Do I as an American, have the right to feel more safe then an Iraqi"
ReplyDeleteYou don't have the "right" but you have the privledge thanks to your Founding Fathers and their wisdom and vision.
Maybe while BT and 24 are in Philadelphia they can learn something to take back home with them.
BT,
ReplyDeleteDid you also know that not all Israeli Jews are Zionists? How are we supposed to feel about the Jews who were born in Israel and love their country and would never want to leave even though they may not be please with the way in which it was created?
Um Haleema says this....
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:59 "Why Do I as an American, have the right to feel more safe then an Iraqi"
You don't have the "right" but you have the privledge thanks to your Founding Fathers and their wisdom and vision.
Maybe while BT and 24 are in Philadelphia they can learn something to take back home with them.
Steve says this......
Shame the Americans decided to illegally invade Iraq and destroy the very heart and infrastructure of a nation
Lessons like that I'm sure they could have done without !
I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure
Wonder how the Americans would last if the whole structure was bombed by a nation with more firepower, rather than Shi'ites fighting with Sunnis, you'd have the Replublicans fighting the democrats, you'd have gangland violence like some major cities have already in bronxes, but if the country was raped, they would be more dominent
George Bush arrested for War crimes (as he should be) and Jerry Springer installed in his place
Its all very hypothetical and guesswork, as it will not happen, but if it did, you would find a country on its knees
Kind regards
Steve
p.s Iraqis please tell me if you felt threatend in your own country before the American led illegal invasion ?
Post 1991 to that date please, just trying to understand some things myself
BT,
ReplyDeleteDid you also know that not all Israeli Jews are Zionists? How are we supposed to feel about the Jews who were born in Israel and love their country and would never want to leave even though they may not be please with the way in which it was created?
very good point there um. i think people everywhere who do not agree w/the foriegn or domestic policies of their government can relate. i know as an american i can. here is an excellent example of how american jews who love israel and are against their current policies towards palestinians are forming together to do something about it.
one of the tools used by the zionists is to try co opt the views of all jews and all 'pro israel' people as being aligned w/themselves. very much in the same way the gop has tried to align w/the christian right in this country to claim they have some monopoly on americanism. like saying the anti war people are anti american. zionists don't speak for jews, they speak for one narrow vision of foriegn/domestic policy for israel.
help is on the way!
The other Israel lobby
The fact is that most American Jews, and many other American supporters of Israel, do not see eye-to-eye on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the most hawkish, knee-jerk Israel supporters in the U.S. government -- even if their presumed leadership, represented by AIPAC, often appears to do so. Moreover, AIPAC's influence in Washington may soon begin to decline, as a powerful new alliance of left-leaning friends of Israel has begun to emerge, with the express aim of reshaping U.S. strategy on the region's most intractable problem.
clip...
A group of small, left-leaning Jewish lobby groups, including the Israel Policy Forum, the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace and the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, banded together to battle AIPAC on the issue,.......a group of other left-leaning philanthropists, many of them Jewish. In the relatively close-knit Middle East lobbying community, it is something of an open secret that this past September, Morton Halperin, who served in both the Nixon and Clinton administrations and is now director of U.S. advocacy for Soros' Open Society Institute, met with a group of lobbyists, political strategists and former politicians who are seeking to create a new well-funded, well-organized, left-leaning Israel lobby, as an alternative to AIPAC.... clip
What exactly would the new organization do? According to Diane Balser, a board member of the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace, one of the small left-wing groups involved in the discussions, the goal is clear: "Organizing systematically to affect U.S. foreign policy." Levy, the former Barak advisor, explained that the movement is "coming from a place where inside the mainstream Jewish community, people are increasingly confused about something that describes itself as pro-Israel, but is so out of sync with what they believe are good politics for the U.S. or Israel."
"The right-wing orientation in the community is losing people by the droves, particularly young people," M.J. Rosenberg of the Israel Policy Forum, one of the main groups involved, added. "Most U.S. Jews support peace in the Middle East, and don't want to shoot down doves anytime they appear."
...clip.. At least four of the players involved have told me that they intend to be an "alternative," but not an "opposition." Still, one of those present at the early meetings said that he sees his organization as "the anti-AIPAC."....Once, when I was still a speechwriter for the Israeli government at the U.N., I sat in on a meeting with a group of right-leaning American Jewish lobbyists who were discussing how harshly to react to the International Court of Justice's ruling that Israel's separation barrier was illegal. Afterward, a senior strategist for the Israeli government said to me, "See, people inside the Israeli government who are sincerely looking for peace have no choice but to wait. This prime minister is not going to bring peace. This ambassador is not going to bring peace." He added, "And those people that we just met are sure as hell not going to bring peace."
"How are we supposed to feel about the Jews who were born in Israel and love their country and would never want to leave even though they may not be please with the way in which it was created?"
ReplyDeleteDearest Um Haleema, lets work with these good people in making a better country for both the Israelis and the Palestinians! A one state solution is the best option in my view. And those who wish to see Israelis and Palestians at each other throats lets put them behind bars or send them to Alcatraz.
“Its all very hypothetical and guesswork, as it will not happen, but if it did, you would find a country on its knees”
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. Divide all the ministries and departments’ between gourps of people who have been vocal about their rasist views. So one for blacks, one for whites, one for hispanics, one for pro homosexuals, one for anti homosexual etc etc etc. And most of all lets dismantle all the US army and call them terrorists. If I was let to rule Iraq in the exact same way Bush and his team have done in Iraq I am 100% sure the US will be on its knees destroyed and hell on earth too. Steve your hypothetical guesswork is right on!
“Iraqis please tell me if you felt threatened in your own country before the American led illegal invasion?”
Discussions involving Saddam´s way of ruling I only talked with my close family, my closest friends and boyfriend; and that was because it was a very dangerous issue to talk about. However international politics, religion, social issues, culture, love, sex, music, art, education and everything else I talk to anybody who wanted to engage in a discussion with me ; )
I remember one night I wanted to sneak out of the house since I have heard that my boyfriend was in town and wanted to be with him. At about 24.00 I stood by the kitchen window and with my coat on ready to go when the sirens started. A warning for an aerial or missile attack from Iran. After 15 minutes it was over, nothing reached Baghdad this time. So I was out, took my 20 minutes walk to his apartment. On the way I met a security car with to men checking out the area. They cared NOTHING ABOUT ME. Just nodded and that’s it. I tried to look as if I was on a very important mission ; ) . In the morning when I took my walk home I met some other security people, and I was not afraid this time either. Did I meet my boyfriend that night? Nope he had gone back to his village : (
My point is a teenage girl going out in the middle of the night in Baghdad was not threatening to me at all other then that I might have gotten in some trouble if my father found out. Would I go out in the middle of the night in my hometown in northern Sweden? NO, here there have been so many rapes that I don’t dare do it. Iraq was safer in the 80:s.
Kind Regards
Nadia
Note correction to my above post:
ReplyDeleteIt should be "If I was let to rule the US"
"I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure"
ReplyDeleteYou'd lose a lot of money on that bet, Steve. Maybe BT can educate you if you listen.
To Nadia on her above post 12/20/2006 12:36 PM
ReplyDeleteU took a very long detour to give us almost no answer to Steve's funny question!
In the 80s it is not that it was safer to go out. But there were many factors that contributed to lesser crimes i think (all able men were at war).
Concerning Steve's question, it is rather difficult to answer. Let's say that the situation NOW in Iraq is not comparable to the situation before the 2003 invasion. Now the killings r on a very larger scale. Kidnappings take place in broad daylight from work places. The occupation forces r not helping quelch the situation on the contrary. They r committing exactly the same sorts of violence, kidnappings, killings committed by any criminal gangs & r rejected as such by all Iraqis. Adding to that the military operations & raids (sometimes unjustified). Agressions on populations of all sorts & then they have the immunity of law persecution in Iraq!!!
All that was not at Saddam's time. There were killings & kidnappings. But they were politically motivated. There was also law & order (even when they were only made to suite Saddam's limited vision). Now these two important things lack sharply & no one not even the occupation forces seem to be interested in restoring this order.
It is true that Saddam destroyed the country before with his rule, but he did not do it to the extent that we see now in Iraq where it became literally UNLIVEABLE. Before it was so for a determined section of the population. Now it touches everybody. The scale of the crimes committed now is CRIMINAL thanks to the occupation.
Surely my description above is not complete. Surely the other participants have better words to describe the situation.
---
Saad
"I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure"
ReplyDeleteSome Anonymous bonehead replied to my above quote with this dribble
'''You'd lose a lot of money on that bet, Steve. Maybe BT can educate you if you listen'''
I asked this question to educate myself thereafter...
'''p.s Iraqis please tell me if you felt threatend in your own country before the American led illegal invasion ?
Post 1991 to that date please, just trying to understand some things myself '''
Thank you Saad, and Nadia for explaining this in your follow ups, now I am a bit clearer about what Iraq was like
Not a bed of roses, and definatly full of pricks
My understanding was that Iraq was getting rebuilt, had some structure, and the economy was starting to pick up
I must admit to not knowing that kidnappings were taking place
Interesting accounts and keen to hear more about the 1991-2002 years compared to the 1980 to 1990 era
Anonymous bonehead is obviously too shy himself to enlighten me after asking the question, and probably still think weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq and Saddam H is a member of Al Qaeda
At least have some spine and post your name next time
Kind regards
Steve
Anyone who would make such an idiotic comment as this:
ReplyDelete"I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure"
is in absolutely no position to call anyone else a "bonehead".
Call me Ishmael.
Ishmael,
ReplyDeleteDon't try and spin what I say
I asked quite clearly for Iraqis, i.e people who lived there to inform me of the situation, I never did Baghdad as a holiday destination so don't really know
'I bet' doesn't mean I am going down the bookmakers to place a bet, it means a guess in that instance
I was indeed correct to think that Iraqis did enjoy a LOT more freedom that those living there today, without actually being resident, or not being fooled by the propaganda media I was only asking a question, and Saad and Nadia have gone someway to doing this, you on the otherhand offer not an ounce of discussion and pick on a word you don't even understand the interpritation on
Your smart arse comments don't impress me,
Impress me and answer my bloody question
What was Iraq like from the 1991-2002 years compared to the 1980 to 1990 era
Is that too difficult for you to understand? Or can I expect more smart arse replies?
Kind regards
Steve
Um Haleema 12/20/2006 8:57 AM
ReplyDeleteBT,
Did you also know that not all Israeli Jews are Zionists? How are we supposed to feel about the Jews who were born in Israel and love their country and would never want to leave even though they may not be please with the way in which it was created?
a little while back i read about the mayor of haifa saying that he would welcome palestinian refugees back to his town. that doesn't change the israeli government's stance, of course, but it shows that not everyone follows it.
Saad to me "U took a very long detour to give us almost no answer to Steve's funny question!"
ReplyDeleteI think my answer was very clear. The threat I felt in Iraq was talking about Saddam and his ruling. How is that "almost no answer"?
As for the exampel of going out alone in the middle of the night its a huge thing at least for as a woman.
"I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure"
ReplyDeletei wish here in america we had the same freedoms we did 5 years ago. say, for the guarantee the government to needs a warrant to listen in on our phone conversations. for the government to have to charge us with a crime to hold us indefinitely without access to a lawyer or even tell us why we are being held, for the government to offer us a trial in a court of law with a jury of our peers. then there is that pesky little torture issue. there are others, this is just a few.
we used to have 3 branches of government that all had to be held accountable to the laws of the land. now, we have an excecutive branch that can evade laws and do whatever they want. because of the signing statements bush uses he can set himself above the law. that is why we call him king george. all he has to do is deem someone a combatant in the war on terror and all the laws that used to make america a free society no longer apply.
ReplyDeleteTo everybody interested,
ReplyDeleteLast Wednesday, the Dutch Parliament has approved a law on the admittance of the Iraqi refugees reaching Holland fleeing the serious situation there. The law is called categorial protection (Categoriale Bescherming), & is intended for Iraqis from the central & southern regions of Iraq. These regions r considered unsafe (unlike the northern region -the Kurdish- which is not included in this law). According to the text of this law, any Iraqi applying for asylum in Holland will not see his demand refused.
These developments come after an Iraqi family whose demand for asylum was initially rejected, & was obliged to leave the centre for refugees to be thrown in the street. This happened weeks ago & caused a national problem when a Dutch TV crew aired the affair.
Ooops again! That was my post above.
ReplyDelete---
Saad
I read here because I am ignorant and I want to learn and become informed. Which is what Steve was trying to say when he asked his "funny" question.
ReplyDeleteI read that question with great anticipation of the potential of a valuable discussion triggered by it.
"You'd lose alot of money on that bet" implies that you, Ishmael, know why that would be so. So inform us please of your point of view. Some of us would really like to hear that rather than your shaming belittlement. Which sadly is more than we can say for some of our leaders here in the US that don't know a shia from a shithouse. Yet they ignorantly liken the 2.
Having said all that I want to point to a parallel between the "Iraqi security" issue and the "Zionist/anitsemitism" issue.
There is a legitimate view that declares that anyone who criticises the zionists is condemmed by them as an anti-semite. Thats part of what we've been discussing here and I appreciate people sharing their views. It contributes to my ever-widening view of the dynamics involved in the human condition facing us.
But this anti-semite accusation is not just by them but by many who are misguided by things like political correctness which only serves to support the zionist claim.
From everything I am reading it is obvious the zionists are polarized in their views and are extreem fundamentalists with narsicistic, self-agrandising, power-over agendas at the expense of their fellow man (sounds exactly like some US leaders I know).
Further, they are masters at playing the guilt card to get their "needs" met and dis-empower objection.
Post Saddam "security", aka law and order, is in shambles now compared to pre-overthrow. I read an article about this recently and over on the pro-war/pro-bush/so-called-pro-patrotism blogs they curcified the author. He brought some of this on himself by the way he presented the article making it a challenge to see his point even for me who is anything but pro-war, pro-bush, pro-repub. But I have seen this happen in various forms to anyone who tries to point out this fact about security in Iraq, particularly in the context of the absurd claim of bringing "freedom" and "democracy" to the Iraqi people as they fall by the thousands.
Another form of this manifests whenever an American objects to this war and is summarily accused of anti-americanism/partiotism.
I find a chilling irony in these parallels which are absolutely absurd in their views and claims.
By that I am NOT saying their claim of hatred and bigotry is absurd. It is a legitimate claim if the vast majority of us could only be honest about the hatreds and bigotries we harbor. What is absurd and appaling is the way the denial is being used and twisted around to empower power-over agendas and polarized points of view that are anything but humane!
Also appalling and disgusting is the denial of our hatreds by so many of us. We would all do much better to say, damn right, I HATE what, in my view, you stand for and what you are doing to carry it out on your fellow man!!!
I can't think of a better way to dis-empower the zionist agendas, or any over-powering agenda for that matter, than to admit the TRUTH!!! Denying our hatreds freezes the dynamic into a vicious circle of blame and defending against the blame and precludes progress.
Steve said: I can see what you are both saying having witnessed the Northern Ireland situation
ReplyDeleteSome families would hate protistents, some would hate catholics and some just wished everyone could get on
Also, I'm english living in Scotland, some Scots are brought up to hate the English, some are not..."
Steve, I don't think that you can really compare Iraqis being taught to hate Jews with N Ireland situation. In Northern Ireland, the hatred was created politically due to the occupation by Protestants (Brits) and subsequent discrimination against Catholics (Irish)
The situation in Ireland could be called a true occupation unlike the situation with the coalition in Iraq. The Brits knew how to occupy a country.
1. Take large army to conquer sovereign nation.
2. De-thrown the king and take over the land.
3. Throw landowners out of their homes and plant a British subject there while the previous owners work the land as slaves.
4. Illegalize the use of the native language.
5. Illegalize education for the natives.
6. Send masses of settlers to live in the land with rights superior to any of the native population.
Now, fast forward a few hundred years. The Irish have finally managed to get the British out of their country save for one province. There is still mass discrimination on the basis of settler vs Irish and this is guaranteed by the redrawing of county lines to assure that the Protestants (loyal to the crown) will be a majority. Now, would the Catholics and the Protestants hate each other because of what they believe about how the church should be run or because one group is treated better than the other because of their political loyalties? While the Protestants may have killed Catholics because they were Catholics , the Catholics (IRA) killed representatives of the British Imperialists(Army and Provosts). Uh oh, you got me going. I bloody hate it when the situation in N Ireland is characterized as a religious war.
[Did you also know that not all Israeli Jews are Zionists? How are we supposed to feel about the Jews who were born in Israel and love their country and would never want to leave even though they may not be please with the way in which it was created?]
ReplyDeleteAnd the same for Protestants in N Irealnd. Some have even assisted the IRA and fight for the rights of the Catholics.
Steve said: I bet an Iraqi 5 years ago enjoyed the same freedom that ToB is enjoying on his American adventure
ReplyDeleteI wasn't there but from what I have read these Iraqi bloggers saying while they may have been safe to walk the streets at night, I don't believe that they were free to think and speak as they pleased while BT, even as a guest in our country, has the freedom to stand in the middle of Philadelphia town square and spew all kinds of derogatory things about the American government as long as he isn't inciting a riot. I don't think that those people in the mass graves would agree with your statement either.
wait um haleema are you saying that arab-israeli problems are different from irish-english issues in the sense that they're just about religious hatred and not about politics? i'm not sure what you're getting at.
ReplyDeleteNo, Palestinian/Israeli problems may be similar to the N Ireland situation but Muslim/Jew problems are completely different and they existed before Israel existed. The discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands had nothing to do with Israel.
ReplyDeleteUm Haleema said,
ReplyDelete"The discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands had nothing to do with Israel."
But still in order to clarify us your ideas u will have to prove us if there REALLY were what u imply as existent the discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands. Right?
---
Saad
The situation in Ireland could be called a true occupation unlike the situation with the coalition in Iraq. The Brits knew how to occupy a country.
ReplyDeleteyou're kidding me right? you don't think what is going on now in iraq is political? you want to frame it as sunni vs shiite instead of nationalists vs pro occupation (the ones who put them in power? ?
1. Take large army to conquer sovereign nation.
that sounds about right
2. De-thrown the king and take over the land.
just for the sake of argument lets exchange land for resources or.. oil) yeah, sounds about right
3. Throw landowners out of their homes and plant a British subject there while the previous owners work the land as slaves.
sounds about right when you switch out land owners for oil owners and homes for jobs/unions
5. Illegalize education for the natives.
wasn't one of the first things we did, change the school books?
6. Send masses of settlers to live in the land with rights superior to any of the native population.
what about sending in masses of contractors and privatizing all business opening it to foriegn investment where once it was controled by natives? change land for oil in your analogy, and btw, those conquerers and their contractors, they don't have to abide by the laws of iraq, we made sure of that. so the superior rights works perfectly
so um, you are left w/your language number 4. big deal.
Now, would the Catholics and the Protestants hate each other because of what they believe about how the church should be run or because one group is treated better than the other because of their political loyalties?
and what about this you don't think sounds like what is happening today in iraq, and will continue as long as one faction stays loyal to the masters of the occupation??
While the Protestants may have killed Catholics because they were Catholics , the Catholics (IRA) killed representatives of the British Imperialists(Army and Provosts).
yeah, frame it as a religious war all you want. this is about puppets and those willing to be bribed into permanent servitude and debt vs those who represent iraq never having to relinguish anything to a conquerer.
Uh oh, you got me going. I bloody hate it when the situation in N Ireland is characterized as a religious war.
and I bloody hate it when the situation in iraq is characterized as a religious war. it's about politics!
and oh yeah, The discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands had nothing to do with Israel.
lets not focus on past excuses, lets move on the the present shall we. there is an abundance of reasons why someone would have reasons to HATE the politics of zionism based on the actions of israel. resting on some pretext from the past to avoid the very legitimate issues of the day is not going to fly. quit hiding behind a shield of professed victimization. israel is not an underdog, it operates in conjunction w/ the worlds superpower. ain't gonna fly. israel is an oppressor in the world stage.
it's about politics, not religion.
Annie, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking aobut. Or should I say what the rest of us were talking about. Zionist and Jews have nothing to to with the situation in Iraq right now. But for the record, I think the "occupation" label still does not fit no matter how hard you might try to make it. When I see a law on Iraq's books saying that Iraqis are not allowed to work, own a home or get an education I might buy what you are trying to sell. If those death threats for people to move were coming from coalition soldiers so they could retructure the neighborhoods, if the mosques were being bombed out by coalition forces as a deliberate aim to rid the country of Islam then you might have a point but alas, you do not. But, I wasn't talking about any "occupation" of Iraq in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSaad, Did you even read his post?
ReplyDelete"I asked everyone knew an Iraqi Jew. I started with my grandmother. I sat on the brown wooden sofa in her kitchen. We talked for hours. Eventually she cried when she remembered her best Jewish friend Clair who was her neighbor as well. She was one of the thousands of Iraqi Jews who were forced to leave Iraq in the 1940s. She told me all about them. They were like us, Iraqis. She told me that they were very famous of the trade of cloths. My grandfather was a wealthy man whose main cloth merchants were Jewish. He owned several factories of sewing clothes. She narrated stories of how my mother, uncles and aunts had so many Jewish friends who used to go together to the same schools. She recalled the “Farhood al Yahood”, a pogrom against the Iraqi Jews that took place on June 1-2, 1941 where Jews were injured and murdered, Jewish property was looted, and Jewish houses were burnt down."
Israel did not exist at that time. And, do you think that this was the only place that it happened?
The Jews of Iraq
ReplyDeletei urge you all (especially um) to read this entire link that nadia n first presented at her 6:08 12/17 post. this is an example of zionists promoting hatred of jews in iraq to serve their political agenda and the political agenda of the english occupier. there is a lot of evidence of zionists promoting the anti semite = anti zionist meme presented here on this thread yet some people have refused to even acknowledge it. to continually scream 'racist' every time someone criticizes israels current political actions is really a weak form of argument.
The situation in Ireland could be called a true occupation unlike the situation with the coalition in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteBut, I wasn't talking about any "occupation" of Iraq in the first place.
you brought it up not me. now you try to squirm out of it
But for the record, I think the "occupation" label still does not fit no matter how hard you might try to make it.
i didn't try at all, you made the argument.
When I see a law on Iraq's books saying that Iraqis are not allowed to work,
what exactly about debaathification do you not comprehaend? what about all the contracts going thru the cpa/occupation authority do you not comprehend? what albout openig up the oil infrastructer to outside privatization do you not comprhend? what about psa's do you not comprehend? iraqis have not had decent jobs and contracts.
nadia n are you saying that arab-israeli problems are different from irish-english issues in the sense that they're just about religious hatred and not about politics?
um...Annie, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking aobut. Or should I say what the rest of us were talking about. Zionist and Jews have nothing to to with the situation in Iraq right now.
don't play dumb um, i didn't make this connection, we are very much talking about religious prosecution vs political. saying i don't know what i am talking about because you haven't a leg to stand on is disengenious.
If those death threats for people to move were coming from coalition soldiers
oh, lets all just close out eyes to negroponte and the salvadoran option shall we, for um's sake!
so they could retructure the neighborhoods,
and lets imagine we aren't preparing a surge of baghdad
if the mosques were being bombed out by coalition forces
very popular video of just that on you tube, highly circulated, want me to dig it up?
as a deliberate aim to rid the country of Islam then you might have a point but alas, you do not.
how about rid the country of socilist policies. how about igniting secretarian strife to further colonial advancement. damn right i have a point, you just use it for your own arguments but don't want to discuss it when it's turned against you.
how about igniting secretarian strife to further colonial advancement.
ReplyDeleteread this and follow the links, check the date, this all could have been avoided, it was warned against by our own state deptartment report that was ignored, and many many think tanks and itellecuals and middle east experts that were purged from the pentagon.
9/03
The U.S. administrator of Iraq has decided to conditionally support the creation of an Iraqi-led paramilitary force composed of former employees of the country's security services and members of political party militias, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials.
Iraq's U.S.-appointed Governing Council wants the force, which would pursue resistance fighters who have eluded American troops, to include a domestic intelligence-gathering unit and to have broad powers to conduct raids and interrogate suspects.
the policies of the cpa were designed early on to empower certain sects to go after others. believe me, if we were hearing about it in november, it was designed way before that. it was part of the plan all along.
it just got out of control, unmanageable, and the force of the resistance was formidble. but the system was there by design, political in nature, but secretarian by design. just like debaathification by design created the beginning of a faction of the resistance.
sorry for moving seriously OT, the reason i find this relevant is the discussion of religious conflicts vs political ones and how the 'framing' of a political conflict can and is used by those in power (including zionist as it was used in iraq) to hide the political aims/agendas and used to subordinate, oppress and control masses of people. sometimes to the point of genocide.
ReplyDeleteNaeim Giladi. I have read about him. I have also read Israeli claims that there was real anti-Jewish feelings in the Iraqi community in the 50s. Obviously it was there in the 1940s, based on the 'Farhod al Yahood' in 1941. BT, do you think this was a reaction to what was happening in Palestine the time. Why did Iraqis suddenly start hating Jews in the 40s? Was it in collusion with the Nazis? I did not know about this 'Farhood al Yahood' in the 1940s in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteHi Mojo,
ReplyDelete“I have also read Israeli claims that there was real anti-Jewish feelings in the Iraqi community in the 50s.”
I don’t guess so because I heard from my grandmother and mother later that there were no hostile sentiments against the Iraqi Jews at all. People were just careful not to mention what happened or anything about it fearing Saddam’s tyranny.
“BT, do you think this was a reaction to what was happening in Palestine the time.”
What happened to the Jews has nothing to do with the sentiments re the Palestinians.
“Why did Iraqis suddenly start hating Jews in the 40s?”
No, no! It did not come suddenly. It was accumulated by Saddam’s regime gradually by depriving the Iraqi young generation from knowing what happened to the Iraqi Jews. Iraqis did not hate the Iraqi Jews at all as far as I heard. On the contrary they were like everybody and that’s what I mentioned in the entry. Even my mother and grandmother miss their Jewish friends to this moment and hope to hear their news one day.
Um Haleema,
ReplyDelete“The discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands had nothing to do with Israel.”
I guess I have to disagree with you here. As an Iraqi and an Arab who lived in the Arab world, I can assure you that the sentiments against the Jews are mainly because of Israel. Arabs feel bad for their Palestinians for what is happening to them by the hands of Israelis.
BT,
ReplyDeleteI understand that the Arab/Jew hatred is currently inflamed due to Israel. However, Israel did not exist at the time that those Jewish neighbors of your Grandmother disappeared. What was the cause then?
But BT, Saddam did not come onto the scene until the 1960s. What was the reason for Farhood al Yahood in 1941?
ReplyDeleteMojo and Um Haleema,
ReplyDeleteGood question you both raised. As far as I heard that it was a kind of a pro-Nazi contract to do that in order to make the Iraqi Jews leave Iraq and live in the forthcoming “state of Israel”. The Zionists were putting the milestone for their state when all this happened. I am not 100 percent sure of that because I heard it but here is a link that explains the history of the Iraqi Jews.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html
“Yet, following the end of the British mandate, the 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community suffered horrible persecution, particularly as the Zionist drive for a state intensified. In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.”
Mojo, the Baathists persecuted the Jews because they claimed they were spies to Israel. Read this from the same link mentioned above:
With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled and telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities.
Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men, eleven of them Jews, were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some 500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to all traitors."
I hope that explains the mystery!
"Iraq became an independent state in 1932. Throughout this period, the authorities drew heavily on the talents of the mall well-educated Jews for their ties outside the country and proficiency in foreign languages. Iraq's first minister of finance, Yehezkel Sasson, was a Jew. These Jewish communities played a vital role in the development of judicial and postal systems.
ReplyDeleteYet, following the end of the British mandate, the 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community suffered horrible persecution"
This was the beginning of what you had posted. It may explain something. It seems that maybe the Jews were prospering a bit more than the non-Jews and they had to be taken down. Very similar to what created the great rise of Hitler. The country can be struggling post war and those damn Jews seem to land on their feet wherever they are. That doesn't always go over well with the majority that aren't as well off.
It seems that maybe the Jews were prospering a bit more than the non-Jews and they had to be taken down. Very similar to what created the great rise of Hitler. The country can be struggling post war and those damn Jews seem to land on their feet wherever they are. That doesn't always go over well with the majority that aren't as well off.
ReplyDeleteum, did you read the link nadia n and then i posted?
there is a section called the riots of 1941
Baghdad fell on May 30. Al-Kilani fled to Iran, along with the Golden Square officers. Radio stations run by the British reported that Regent Abd al-Ilah would be returning to the city and that thousands of Jews and others were planning to welcome him. What inflamed young Iraqis against the Jews most, however, was the radio announcer Yunas Bahri on the German station "Berlin," who reported in Arabic that Jews from Palestine were fighting alongside the British against Iraqi soldiers near the city of Faluja. The report was false.
On Sunday, June 1, unarmed fighting broke out in Baghdad between Jews who were still celebrating their Shabuoth holiday and young Iraqis who thought the Jews were celebrating the return of the pro-British regent. That evening, a group of Iraqis stopped a bus, removed the Jewish passengers, murdered one and fatally wounded a second.
About 8:30 the following morning, some 30 individuals in military and police uniforms opened fire along el-Amin street, a small downtown street whose jewelry, tailor and grocery shops were Jewish-owned. By 11 a.m., mobs of Iraqis with knives, switchblades and clubs were attacking Jewish homes in the area.
pro-Nazi contract to do that in order to make the Iraqi Jews leave Iraq and live in the forthcoming “state of Israel”.
ReplyDeletewhy would the nazi's want iraqi jews to mve to israel? weren't the british running the show in iraq then, weren't they the one's pro israel. it seems they may have had been a motivating factor . i am weary of copying too much from the previous link but this does seem to make some sense.
Today there is no doubt in my mind that the anti-Jewish riots of 1941 were orchestrated by the British for geopolitical ends. David Kimche is certainly a man who was in a position to know the truth, and he has spoken publicly about British culpability. Kimche had been with British Intelligence during WW II and with the Mossad after the war. Later he became Director General of Israel's Foreign Ministry, the position he held in 1982 when he addressed a forum at the British Institute for International Affairs in London.
In responding to hostile questions about Israel's invasion of Lebanon and the refugee camp massacres in Beirut, Kimche went on the attack, reminding the audience that there was scant concern in the British Foreign Office when British Gurkha units participated in the murder of 500 Jews in the streets of Baghdad in 1941.
The Bombings of 1950-1951
The anti-Jewish riots of 1941 did more than create a pretext for the British to enter Baghdad to reinstate the pro-British regent and his pro-British prime minister, Nouri el-Said. They also gave the Zionists in Palestine a pretext to set up a Zionist underground in Iraq, first in Baghdad, then in other cities such as Basra, Amara, Hillah, Diwaneia, Abril and Karkouk.
i also always consider the source. the american israel cooperative enterprisemay not be the most definative unbiased source for answers to these question.
First of all I would like to salute all those in this section who is contributing in the discussion round the casting of the light & the explaining of the numerous obscure events shrouding the modern history of Iraq.
ReplyDeleteI send a special thanks to Treasure of Baghdad for having broken through the thick wall of prejudices in talking openly about this sensitive subject.
Now back to our subject. I would like to cast a partial light (in the limits of my moderate knowledge) on the general mood in Iraq vs. the Jews in the 30s & thereafter.
In general, the popular mood in Iraq showed no reactions in parallel to the anti-semistisms or pogroms that covered Europe & its eastern parts in the 19th & 20th centuries. To my knowledge there r no records showing any of this. However, in the 30s with the rise of Nazism, there were some signs of pro-German feelings starting to show in very limited circles in parallel to the activities of the Axis' propaganda aired by radio Berlin (the speaker was the Iraqi Yunus Bahri), & the efforts of the German Embassy in Baghdad at that time. Of the extent of these pro-German feelings i have no idea. But surely high enough in the nationalistic military circles. Needless to say that the Nazis where extremely interested to destabilise the position of the British in their colonies. Iraq had had a special attention within the German propagandists.
(Among the most successful efforts made was the establishment of a so-called Arab Legion, whose very first volunteers & core were deserting officers & soldiers from the Iraqi Army & Iraqi nationalists. It was later widened to other Arab nationalists. Their standard was the Iraqi royal flag of the time!).
Within Iraq itself, these efforts were not reflected visibly in the street nor in the intelligentsia. The whole of the country wanted independance from the British & wasn't at all enthousiast about entering a world war with anybody. So I guess there was no general agreement round the siding with the Axis against the British neither. Other opinions were deeply suspicious of the Germans & of their Italian allies. Some others were openly calling for the support of the British war effort in order to obtain independance later.
In 1936 a successful coup led by an Iraqi officer took place in Baghdad. The reason were purely politically-driven. I guess that starting from that moment anti-Jewish feelings started to show more openly in the Iraqi scene which culminated with the June 1940 Farhood. Also should be mentioned the rise of a very acute Iraqi nationalism in the 30s (i don't know from which moment) that went parallel with the efforts of the German embassy in Baghdad.
Of the Farhood in 1940, just as annie wrote in her post above, Army & police officers participated in the riots. I'm not astonished at this seen the background i explained above in this post.
Nevertheless, many Iraqis who had had Jewish neighbours had helped hide them in their own houses during these black days. Some even went to mount the guard of their Jewish neighbours' houses & interests & even entered into armed battles against mobs in defense of these places. Of these accounts i don't have the sources.
Funniest thing of the whole episode was the official inquiry of the affair which concluded to a... responsible unknown (Fa'il Majhool- in Arabic. I don't know the term in English). This was maybe due to the police officers who intentionally scamped the work following orders from deeply embarrased higher political circles!!!
I hope this casts light on the situation in Iraq round this affair. I would like to underline the very important fact that this affair was deeply blacked-out whether under the Monarchy or under the republican rule in Iraq. Not much -if any- was published on the affair. So foreign people should not be suprised at the level of IGNORANCE Iraqis in general show on this question. I myself had had the utmost difficulty outside Iraq when trying to just get a small book on the event. As time went by, things in the world became more developped & so such events become all the more sensitive to talk about.
---
Saad
Hi Hi Hi
ReplyDeleteCannot leave you lot alone for 5 minutes without you having a tongue lashing at each other (sic)
Ok I was the bright spark who brought up Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is comparable to Iraq in one or 2 ways (when it was terrorism ridden)
You didn't know what you enemy looked like - likewise in Iraq when I did the first gulf war, they all wore the same trendy white gowns and the tea towel like Yamshak thingy (?)
Its not like on the TV where the brits wear their uniforms, the Yanks theirs, and the good old Germans wore their own
I've said several times, war is evil.
Anyways, the IRA (the equivalent of the insurgents, they wore what they liked) they could kidnap you, blow your car up, or just blow lots and lots of innocent civilians up, a member of Royalty (like Lord Mountbatten) or even attack and entire political Party (like the Brighton bomb)
Anything that made the headlines, the bigger the better as far as they were concerned, and if a child got killed, so be it, anything for the cause
Is it to do with religion, or the territory ?
The Catholics want to be Irish and the whole of Northern and Southern Ireland be one and separate from the British
The Protestants wanted to be part of the United Kingdom
Religion was just an excuse, I think its largely inbred and inherited, bit like this birthright thing I keep babbling on about
What our parents decided to teach us we largely (on the whole) pick up and become. We have already seen Treasures and Nadias upbringing was different, yet in the same area
Both level headed, intelligent and very good at posting things
Now to clear up my point about Amercia being invaded by lets say ... uhm an Arab Nations Army en mass
Annie picked up my point very well in an email she and I exchanged
If Americas infrastructure was destroyed, you'd have republics and democrats, Black v whites, East versus the West, Protestants and catholics, straights and queers, animal rights actavists,anti war lobby, suburban gangs from the least wealthy areas attacking each other, pakistani's, Indians, Hispanics, Chinese, etc etc you'd have the makings of all out civil war.
Like in the days of the KKK you'd have a bunch of country bumpkins now attacking these Arabs, and on Al Jazzera they would be known as insurants
When this Arab force have created some kind of control, they'll find some Americans who thought what they were doing was great, who were good pals, and instate them as a government, and religious leaders can be the new senate...
I don't think your average American would be too happy
Of course some of the above is a certain amount of bollocks, because it will never happen.
America has always had the biggest stick in World Politics, and what they say generally goes
Before any new readers slate me, I like Arabs, and Americans and am proud of the servicemen who are doing an incredibly brave thing out in the gulf, they have my full respect, without an armed force you become a vulnerable country, just a shame the people pulling the forces strings are making such a pigs ear about it (cue Vietnam)
On the otherhand, had I still been a serviceman I would now be sat in Jail with a pending dishonourable discharge for refusing to carry out orders.....
Its not in my lifes remit to be part of an act of terrorism we have created, I'd rather help the poor fuckers who are starving, or want to have a fair chance while they are resident on planet earth
Kind regards
Steve
BT said,
ReplyDelete"Um Haleema,
“The discrimination/hatred of Jews throughout Muslim lands had nothing to do with Israel.”
I guess I have to disagree with you here. As an Iraqi and an Arab who lived in the Arab world, I can assure you that the sentiments against the Jews are mainly because of Israel. Arabs feel bad for their Palestinians for what is happening to them by the hands of Israelis."
I would like to give a necessary explaining here. I think one should differentiate between whose Jews r we talking about. There seems to be confusion here.
First of all I'm not sure if there r any anti-Jewish feelings as such in the Arab world, Palestine or not. But there r surely anti-Israeli feelings in relation with the events in Palestine. Of course the propagandists on the opposite side try to show this to the world as anti-Jewish feelings for obvious reasons.
As for the Jews LIVING in the Arab countries, i'm not sure of the existence of any animosity against them. The anti-Jewish feelings of the Arabs r oriented against those Jews who work against the Arab interests in general & the Palestinians in particular on behalf of the Jewish colonisation in Palestine. Those Jews r to be found mainly in the US (AIPAC i.e., the US Congress, some highly rich Jewish businessmen & Hollywood producers) & in Europe. These feelings i repeat do not concern the Arab Jews in the Arab countries.
Also there are 'Jews' who r not really Jewish, but have a vested interest to work with the Jews against the Arab interests.
So here it becomes purely political.
---
Saad
annie said...
ReplyDelete"pro-Nazi contract to do that in order to make the Iraqi Jews leave Iraq and live in the forthcoming “state of Israel”.
why would the nazi's want iraqi jews to mve to israel? weren't the british running the show in iraq then, weren't they the one's pro israel. it seems they may have had been a motivating factor . i am weary of copying too much from the previous link but this does seem to make some sense.
Today there is no doubt in my mind that the anti-Jewish riots of 1941 were orchestrated by the British for geopolitical ends."
Annie,
I have copied the section partially bcs i found there were some things in it to be clarified. First the anti-Jewish riots in Baghdad were in June 1-2, 1940, not in -41.
And no, these riots came in by pure coincidence in my opinion. U should be more aware of what was at stake in Iraq & the world at that time & look closer at what was really happening.
U r theorising about an inexistent Theory of Conspiracy.
The Brits where very busy trying to quell a dangerous situation created by the Iraqi Army at that time in order to break away from the British sphere of influence (with the help of Germany) & go into the latter. Surely u would understand what would that mean? It would mean exactly what was put into other words in the sixties: The domino effect! The Germans were also preparing the same surprises to the Brits in other parts of the world. In India for example, (where in Europe they were training a pro-Nazi Indian force to take over in India - ever heard of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose?), or in Egypt (Aziz Ali Al-Masri), in Palestine (Mufti Amin Hussaini & other Palestinian nationalists), in former Yugoslavia & Eastern Europe,...etc.
Surely the British intelligence foresaw what might happen. But i deeply doubt that they manipulated the events in any way so that it would suite their ends in Palestine. U said yourself that they were running the show right? That is why i don't think they would expose their interests in Iraq like this & cause civil unrest. They were occupying Iraq for the sake of their economy, not for its destruction.
So now i will go to explain a bit about Palestine before going back to Iraq.
In Palestine the primary & only ones who had a very great interest in filling the country with Jews were the Zionists themselves. But of course I can also have doubts that the Brits had had the same idea also, but for different reasons. So if this were true, then i doubt that they would work on behalf of this idea openly for obvious reasons.
Anyway, i wouldn't think that the Brits would organise a destructive operation in Baghdad like that for two days only & with the open participation of the IP & IA that they have helped establish. U can imagine that exactly like now, the first ones to lose face will be the masters themselves.
At least i can say that they didn't hinder one iota the Zionist enterprises for the establishment of their so-called homeland in Palestine. Also i have deep suspicions on the British claiming their innocence in the affair by brandishing their so-called efforts in stopping this or that cargo carrying immigrant Jews from Europe (the Jewish records on the stuff do not mention any British hindrance on this on the contrary.)
The Brits surely know through their intelligence that the Iraqi Jews will NEVER leave their interests in Iraq wherin they have so much invested & go live in a hostile country where they will have to start all over again. & for what? For a couple of clowns from Europe with loony ideas about pogroms that they -the IJ- have never experienced the colour?
Not so much could be said about this subject in the absence of documents.
I think that the biggest operation to deport the Jews from Iraq was that organised in the 50s by the Israeli Mossad & the Jewish Agency. These were the most active ones in this field. But about the British collusion in all that, one will need more thorough proof. U agree with me on that don't u?
---
Saad
"Um Haleema said...
ReplyDelete"Iraq became an independent state in 1932. Throughout this period, the authorities drew heavily on the talents of the mall well-educated Jews for their ties outside the country and proficiency in foreign languages. Iraq's first minister of finance, Yehezkel Sasson, was a Jew. These Jewish communities played a vital role in the development of judicial and postal systems.
Yet, following the end of the British mandate, the 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community suffered horrible persecution" "
Please Um Haleema, when u speak of 20th century Iraq, be more attentive to the linking of events to dates.
At the beginning of your post u say 'throughout that period'. Which period? Maybe u r talking of the period started in 1921 & ended in 1958. Also the first Jewish minister of Finance's name was Sassoon Hisqel (that is how it is spelt). That was in 1921.
Then at the end of your paragraph u say 'Yet, following the end of the British mandate, the 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community suffered horrible persecution'.
Sorry? WHEN was this end u r talking about? Dates, dates & dates & more clarification please!
"This was the beginning of what you had posted. It may explain something. It seems that maybe the Jews were prospering a bit more than the non-Jews and they had to be taken down. Very similar to what created the great rise of Hitler. The country can be struggling post war and those damn Jews seem to land on their feet wherever they are. That doesn't always go over well with the majority that aren't as well off."
U r talking about jealousy among the people? Yes i read about that also. But we will need more thorough info on that before going spilling this & that here right? & in any way, this wasn't the issue in Iraq. I mean people won't go around persecuting this & that bcs they r jealous of his wealth. Do they?
---
Saad
I wish a Happy Christmas
ReplyDelete&
a Happy New Year to all of u, friends of the Iraqi people.
Hopefully the coming year 2007 will see the end of the foreign occupation in Iraq & a happy, prosperous & dignified living will result for the Iraqi people- my people.
---
Saad
Saad,
ReplyDeleteThose weren't MY words. BT had quoted from this http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html
I went and read that and pasted what was right before what HE had pasted.
saad But about the British collusion in all that, one will need more thorough proof. U agree with me on that don't u?
ReplyDeleteabsolutely! as w/um's clarification part of what you copied as my words were those quoted from the link, specifically these are not my words...
"Today there is no doubt in my mind that the anti-Jewish riots of 1941 were orchestrated by the British for geopolitical ends."
i always have doubts! my words were 'they may have been a motivating factor', and 'this does make some sense.'
reflecting back on history is not the same as being present and so many of our witnesses have passed on. as w/my earlier comment about considering the source, this applies to all sources, not just the ones one my find sympathetic or confirm our suspicions.
i really appreciate this thread also and everyones contributions. one of the reasons i try to find political explanations for events is that it is easier for me to comprehend than people acting out of irrational deep seated hatred and fears on a grand scale. i do believe most people everywhere are good and are motivated by their one on one experiences w/people. but, i am not so naive to believe people act in despicable ways that are based on prejudice.
i would like to extend a wish for peace to everyone and thank you for opening your ideas about the past so we can move thru the present and future w/more understanding, clarity, resolution and hope.
thank you BT especially for opening up this topic in particular.
a warm holiday for everyone is my hope.
PEACE BE WITH YOU
whoops, i made a mistake..
ReplyDeleteshould read
"but, i am not so naive to believe people don't (also, sometimes) act in despicable ways that are based on prejudice.
Hi everybody. I have been searching in the internet lately when i remembered of an Iraqi Jew who writes regularely in Iraqi websites. So i searched his site & found this below in Arabic about the Farhood of June 1941. His name is Mr. Heskel Qujman. He puts his opinions & souvenirs of it. Also he thinks that the perpetrators of the Farhood were Iraqi thugs from outside Baghdad brought in by.... the British forces. & that it is them the real beneficiaries of the Farhoud.
ReplyDeletePlease read the link. It is in Arabic. Sorry for that. But u will have to find s.o. who can translate it for you.
He also has an email address where u can put your questions to him.
http://www.rezgar.com/debat/show.art.asp?aid=75437
Enjoy!
---
Saad
Thanks a lot guys for this constructive discussion.
ReplyDeleteSaad, Thanks a million for the link. I read the whole thing. It was awesome.
Happy Eid, Christmas, and Hanukkah!
my greatest wish, that we can find peace this day, for everyday, espeacially that we can find our common thread,
ReplyDeletethat said, IT SEEMS SO UNFAIR ahh i complain because i cannot read your language, please translate, someone, saad? BT? the words of Mr. Heskel Qujman. i so much want to believe that the masses have been/are still , our reactions, a product of political manipuations instead of inner prejudice.
perahps i am wrong, maybe it is really prejudice, but my instinct, is that people everywhere are by nature good. that our dna has a commonality of good and justice, that it is the desire of the few powerful and desiring for greed that lead us, conspire us, to act against our best judgement and instinct to painfully create history that does not represent the best in us, in fact it distorts who we really are, we are, by nature i believe loving beings.
with this spirit i wish you all (in not necessarily the reality, but in the spirit of the myth, of jesus whose birth we celebrate today usurping the pagan holiday of solstice, rebirth for mankind) a rejuvination, a day of hope, the free will of mankind based on principles of forgiveness and love.
war is over, if you want it
in prayer..w/love
Annie, in his article Mr. Qujman says that the Brits had had an interest the Farhood takes place in service of the interests of the Zionist movement maybe according to the movements of their troops in Baghdad. He also says that an end was put to the operation by units of the Iraqi Army from Kirkuk. He also says that the same scenario was intended to happen in Basra, but didn't take place bcs the people there were aware of the conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteThese words come in parallel with your suspicions. Thus it turns over what i said.
But still, i need more information on the question.
Oh & Annie, the man has put his email address in the beginning of his article. So for further info u can always get in contact with him.
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Saad
thank you saad for the update. i was so caught up in the other threads i forgot to come back and check.
ReplyDeletethe explanation does seem very compelling. also, it confirms my suspicions of how empire builders use and manipulate societies for mischievious aims and dirty deeds.
also, the zionists have made extraordinary efforts to use the meme of anti semitism for their benefit so it does not surprise me that there are forces at work framing the events a certain way , or keeping the truth hidden as my 12/19/2006 9:07 PM link explains.
perhaps i will contact Mr. Qujman via email and see if there is a translation he can provide me. thanks
Thank you for such a beautiful & moving piece. May Iraq some day be such a country that will welcome home all her children, whether they be Moslem, Christian, Jew, Arab, Kurd or Turkman to live together as Equals in Freedom & Peace.
ReplyDelete