When abc’s Diane Sawyer and her crew landed in
Last week, abc network’s promotion of the Sawyer’s Primetime was very interesting. It was about visiting a hidden country that
Since the Americans became increasingly worried, TV networks started mentioning
Since then, the
Sawyer’s Primetime was finally aired last Friday. She spent twelve days in a world she considers “astonishingly different” from the one she inhabits.
I was interested in watching the show because I wanted to see how different
The trip started with Sawyer at the airport which was decorated with the huge posters of the country’s most fearful leader Kim Jong-il who succeeded his father Kim Il-sung, the founder of the Democratic People's Republic. As I saw that image, memories of old
“We are the descendants of the great leader,” three North Korean children sang pausing before the abc camera. I laughed out loud at this, not because I was surprised but because I went through the same thing when I was in their age. It was exactly the same when we were trained to praise the “great leader,” in my case it was Saddam Hussein, when we were in school. I recalled how we sang for Hussein praising victory against the Persian and American enemies.
Sawyer showed copies of the country’s state-owned newspapers which looked exactly like the ones we used to have before 2003: a picture of the president below a bold-font headline, “Glory to the Korean People’s army”.
“We noticed a magazine that said the
In her tour in the city, Sawyer interviewed students and children. She asked them about their future dreams and looked amazed at how insistent they were to study and serve their country.
These ambitious generations have no idea about the internet. One student who wants to be an expert in the nuclear experiments knew nothing about Google. “I am sorry. I don’t know what you are talking about,” the student replied.
Although there are some similarities between
Another thing that drew my attention was that the North Korean young people are not allowed to listen to American music. In my case, I was exposed to western music when I wanted. When Sawyer gave them a copy of an American magazine, they were not excited about going through it. Instead, they passed it to each other looking at the cover only.
Another difference is that the government in
The North Korean people denounced the
“I like nothing about
After the show was over, I thought about what is going to happen if the Americans intervened in North Korea? What would happen to the children, student, farmers, and all the innocent people? Will they pay the price of their government’s challenge like what happened in
The main question remains, what would the
Hussein's biggest crime may have been, in the end, precisely NOT having the nuclear weapons that the US accused him of possessing. Having the nuke may have saved Iraq from destruction and over 600000 Iraqis may have been alive today. What irony, considering all the bluster of Hussein about how invincible he was. In the end, he was too weak.
ReplyDeleteThe US will never invade North Korea, because the Koreans have the Big Stick. Simple as that.
North Korea seems to be more like Albania under Hoxha than Iraq under Saddam. But all of these totalitarian states have common features, which are basically the symptoms of megalomania in the rulers.
ReplyDeleteHere is the real North Korea that they wouldn't show Diane Sawyer:
ReplyDeletehttp://youtube.com/watch?v=KA6livwPnGI
There's even more on youtube.com of the real misery that exists behind the facade. North Korea is starving, except for therelatively privileged few, and Kim Jong Il didn't care until the US cut off the banks that were handling his counterfeiting operations. Only when money in his own pockets is threatened, does Kim Jong Il act. When food is threatened for his people, he is not very concerned. From reading the most recent CIA report on Iraqi WMDs which are 20/20 only after entering Iraq, Saddam also had a similar disinterest in the well being of his people during the oil sanctions. When he found a way around the sanctions via the corrupt UN Oil-For-Food program, he used the money on his military and luxuries like his most lavish palaces while the people suffered. If Iraqis miss his style of authoritarianism with its inherent security through lack of freedom, they are free to move to North Korea and experience its full glory.
Don Cox said,
ReplyDelete"North Korea seems to be more like Albania under Hoxha than Iraq under Saddam. But all of these totalitarian states have common features, which are basically the symptoms of megalomania in the rulers."
Tell me DC, do u have the least proof of what u say? Don't tell me u listened to CNN's crap.
Tell me instead of the situation of the Korean people. R they REALLY starving like the western media is saying? Till now not one single TV report has showed us the overall 'hardships' endured by the N-Korean people. & what we get is just worthless bla bla on the question from right-wing US media.
And if Kim il-Sung really is interested in filling his pockets with money, then may i know why the heck is he spending so enormously on a pain-staking expensive program like that of the making of an A-bomb (if this is ever true)?
If this is difficult to answer then let's propose something more grounded: How about a comparison between the situation of the peoples of the N- & S-Koreas?
Funny till now not one western media has dared make a TV report on such a topic. What? Too hot to handle? Would never attract people at prime time? Or other reasons?
Maybe the N-Koreans DO live in a Hoxha-like Albania, but at least i think they eat to their hunger, live decently & with dignity, & unlike their pro-western neighbours r not .........under the joug of a foreign occupying power.
---
Saad
I don't think there is any media network is going to be able to reflect the real picture of North Korea since the regime does not allow most of foreign journalists and that he monitors all the media outlets in his country.
ReplyDeleteThat's why Sawyer's report might not be accurate as they spend only 12 days in a country ruled by a dictator.
It's like what happpened in Iraq when the western media tried to distort the image of Iraqis by saying that they were oppressed to the extent they became backwards by the time Iraqis were well-educated and more liberal and secular before the occupation.
So, if you are American or British, I don't advise you to trust your country's reports 100 percent.
TB,
ReplyDelete"I don't think there is any media network is going to be able to reflect the real picture of North Korea since the regime does not allow most of foreign journalists and that he monitors all the media outlets in his country."
Here u say speak correctly. Still, I'm not sure that the lack of info lies only on Kim's responsibility. I'm sure that if the western media wants to get to the truth, the real one, not the Govtal one, then they can get to it. They have the men & the skills. But till now we haven't seen any of that. So is it that the western media REALLY is hindered by Kim's goons or is there another 'western' reason?
Would it be that the political establishments want the subject to remain as foggy as possible apart for the Nuke thing?
PS: I remind everybody that the BBC once made excellent TV reports on the situation in Afghanistan before the war. So why is it 'so difficult' in Korea?
If Iraqis miss his style of authoritarianism with its inherent security through lack of freedom, they are free to move
ReplyDeleteunless they are dead.
Dear Treasure of Baghdad
ReplyDeleteIt's very nice to concentrate on the American media and how they mslead their people sometimes.
You and I were living in Iraq before the last war, people were very happy while they were waiting for the Americans to lebirate them, yes we sufferd alot after that but, they wanted it .
The problem is people are being in a quandery between accepting the life under dectatorships or suffering the civil war. What happend in Iraq is being used like a threat by the dectators to their people. Nobody can accept to suffer a civil war.
well done .
By the way, there is something wrong with my e-mail, I tried to send you an e-mail but I faild . Try this one aeiraq@gmail.com
Keep in touch
[BT] "What would happen to the children, student, farmers, and all the innocent people?"
ReplyDeleteThere is a recent documentary precisely about this, it's a must see. Informations below.
Iraq - The Lost Generation (Channel4)
"(...) opens a window onto the hidden world of Iraqi youth, revealing the brutalisation and psychological trauma of living under military occupation. It reveals how the people with whom the future of Iraq rests, are reacting with anger, aggression and, in some cases, violence. Operating at great personal risk, a local Iraqi journalist and crew travelled widely throughout the country, outside the safety of the green zone, to document the lives of a range of young people whose hopes and dreams have been shattered by the occupation. (...)"
More info here.
Torrent file here.
YouTube link here.
It certainly does seem like there are a lot of similarities between the personality cults of Saddam and Kim Jong-il. It is also a bit coincidental for me, having made some Iraqi friends through blogging, that I had several good friends from South Korea when I was in college. I even traveled to South Korea with one of my friends. It is not commonly known that North and South Korean soldiers occasionally exchange gun fire across the DMZ. Another of my friends showed me the scar of a bullet wound he received while he was doing his two years of mandatory military service! Back to your point though, I agree with you that it is very unlikely that the U.S. would attempt to invade North Korea. They have a million soldiers poised to invade South Korea and at least a limited nuclear capability now. I think that the U.S. still has about 50,000 soldiers stationed in South Korea, and from what I have heard, they are armed with tactical nukes that can be fired from big cannons aimed to the north. Things could get really ugly very fast, so I hope that everybody keeps their cool on the Korean peninsula!
ReplyDeleteBT, you might be interested to read the letter I got from my second Senator yesterday. I posted it.
North Korea may have a million men, but the quality of those soldiers is about the same as Saddam's regular army before the USA invaded Iraq. In fact, their food shortage is more severe than it was with the Iraqi army. The USA would go through them like tissue paper with only the terrain slowing them down. The reason why the USA doesn't invade is simply because of the country behind North Korea - China. The USA has no intention to start a war with China mainly due to deep economic ties. So the US tactic with North Korea has been to saddle China with the responsibility of reigning in its dog which is why China is hosting the six party talks over North Korea. China just wants North Korea as a buffer zone. If China wanted North Korea to have nukes, North Korea wouldn't have had to import scientists and material from Russia and Pakistan. All China would have to do is drive the nukes across the border with nobody being able to do anything about it. The reason why Bush isn't crying wolf over North Korea's nuke test is because he is getting all details of North Korea's program from China under the table. He knows North Korea is far away from being able to weaponize it nukes, so Bush is comfortable with denying any concessions to North Korea and staying on the diplomatic path.
ReplyDelete[SJ Moon]"North Korea may have a million men, but the quality of those soldiers is about the same as Saddam's regular army before the USA invaded Iraq."
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for u (& i would even ask u to keep quite till u have SOLID proof) unlike Saddam, Kim il jung seems to have enough money to keep an army up. Remember the Nuke enterprise. Saddam was under embargo. Not Kim. So in the future i would look into the simple facts first before risking an unpleasant situation like this one.
"In fact, their food shortage is more severe than it was with the Iraqi army. The USA would go through them like tissue paper with only the terrain slowing them down."
Oh yeah? First of all it was a western media propaganda this story of the IA food shortages. And the two-week bashing we gave the Anglo-Americans in Fao & Um Qasr? U forgot about that? So much for your food shortage scoop!
Also u seem to IGNORE History. There were very unpleasant lessons the Americans have learned from the Korean war in 1950-53, in part bcs of a defeat with the Chinese also.
I would very much rather have a reasonable discussion with anyone wise enough, NOT a brainless....
"The reason why the USA doesn't invade is simply because of the country behind North Korea - China. The USA has no intention to start a war with China mainly due to deep economic ties. So the US tactic with North Korea has been to saddle China with the responsibility of reigning in its dog ...."
If this REALLY is the reason then I'm afraid u got it all wrong again. The Americans can't afford going to war with China for the simple reason that they can't afford an unwinnable war there. Surely not with the bulk of their troops locked in Afg. & Iraq. Also there is an historical precedent (mentioned above): In 1948, shortly after WWII, the Americans tried to knock the Chinese down to have full liberty of action in E-Asia. So they sent.... Gen. MacArthur (Yes him, the hero of the Pacific) to lead the operation. The Americans later suffered a tremendous & an extremely humiliating defeat at the hands of the Chinese. It seems that the latter were waiting for them!!!
"China just wants North Korea as a buffer zone. If China wanted North Korea to have nukes (...)All China would have to do is drive the nukes across the border with nobody being able to do anything about it. The reason why Bush isn't crying wolf over North Korea's nuke test is because he is getting all details of North Korea's program from China under the table."
If this is true then China is playing a wise game. But i don't think that they r doing s.th. the Koreans do not know about. I think that the Koreans r keen the Americans know about their program in the details. So if its emabarrassing for Washington to show in daylight believing NK about its program, why not then use the services of a trusty & reliable third party?
PS: The post 12/13/2006 3:43 PM is mine. I forgot to put my name on it. Excuses!
---
Saad
the regime controlling the US government presently only invades when they want $omething. that is why we don't invade n korea.
ReplyDeleteThis is personal commentary of a Russian in Pyongyang showing how bad it is there. It is far worse outside the capital and for the military:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755
"Water seems not to be avaliable everywhere when you leave the capital. A woman is washing her clothes in the river."
...
"Koreans are not shy when it comes to basic needs, the guide forbid to take pictures of men taking a piss on the middle of the road, but there was no problem when it happened in the capital next to to a monument (look at the guy on the steps)
The big monument, (they cut off the electricity at 11)
The city at night is scary, there is no light on the streets and people use white lights and no curtains.
during the day the elevator didn't work for 15 mins
View from the monument, besides the pretty view you can also see the dead birds."
Here's a link showing the state of the North Koreann people including the military away from the cameras:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ITBqRSMBWaM
Kim Jong Il is suffering a money crunch as the USA has closed his connection with bank associated with his counterfeiting operation. He has had to use his military as labor to help farm which has taken them away from training and preparation. The North Korean military isn't factor in how the USA deals with North Korea. As you seem to have come around in agreement with me, China is the reason why the USA doesn't invade North Korea.
As for the IA food shortage, it was most felt when the bombing of the lines and roads occurred and what was left of Saddam's logistics were blown away. As for Fao and Umm Qasar, how many days did Saddam's military hold the ports?
As for the US attacking China in 1948 led by MacArthur, I would like to see your proof. All data I have found shows that Marshall led the US forces in China and they withdrew in 1947. MacArthur was busy with his pet project of rebuilding Japan in 1948 along with possible presidential aspirations in the USA. This link has detailed descriptions of the battles of the Chinese Civil War and doesn't even mention any US incursion in 1948:
http://www.republicanchina.org/civil_wars.html
But the main reason why the USA doesn't want a war with China is because there is no foreseeable economic benefit from it. The invasion of Iraq would have never happened without 9/11 and Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, but underneath it all, there was a belief that the invasion of Iraq would be economically beneficial to the USA in the long run similar to the results of occupying Germany and Japan. The US will not go to war with China because the break in economic ties isn't worth it.
North Korea is the most secretive dictatorship in the world. At the negotiation poker table, their strategy has been repeatedly to bluff for as much as they can get. They don't want the USA to know everything about their nuclear program, but that doesn't mean China can't spy and find out for the USA which is happening. China has more spies in the USA than any other country. You don't think they wouldn't be spying on North Korea whose leader they think as being unstable and whom they don't trust with nuclear weapons? Bush trusts China enough to rely on their info about North Korea. That is why he treated their leader with more than usual dignity to the point of apologizing for a Falun Gong protester's outburst during one public meeting in the USA.
[Sang J. Moon]"China has more spies in the USA than any other country."
ReplyDeleteFor those interested in the subject I recommend this page about the super-gifted Katrina Leung. There is also a documentary about her, called "From China With Love". I think the "Love" in the title is because she managed to become lover of two FBI special agents assigned for China affairs, but I may be wrong...
That is why he treated their leader with more than usual dignity to the point of apologizing for a Falun Gong protester's outburst during one public meeting in the USA.
ReplyDeletei think we live on different planets moon. this allegation is absurd. bush was considered to be rude to the the chinese leader when he came. it was a foreign relations nightmare according to multiple msm sources.
But the main reason why the USA doesn't want a war with China is because there is no foreseeable economic benefit from it.
aside from the fact that we would be crushed militarily and financially. they also have over a billion people there. they happen to be the global majority. china also holds the hugest debt america has ever had in its history, up in the trillions .we couldn't pull it off , not by a long shot. our military is booked so to speak. stretched very thin.
The invasion of Iraq would have never happened without 9/11 and Saddam's invasion of Kuwait
again, we come from different universes. the invasion of iraq was planned before 9/11 as evidenced in the cheney energy meeting that began 10 days after bush took office, this has been covered in the press. our financial insentives in iraq are completely different than japan or germany. radically different.
They don't want the USA to know everything about their nuclear program, but thatdoesn't mean China can't spy and find out for the USA which is happening.
you are nuts.
The China-North Korea Relationship
from the council on foriegn relations.
How strong is the current relationship between North Korea and China?
China has supported North Korea since Chinese fighters flooded onto the Korean peninsula to fight for the Communist Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) in 1950. Since the Korean War divided the peninsula between the North and South, China has given both political and economic backing to North Korea's leaders: Kim Il Sung, and his son and successor, Kim Jung-Il. In recent years, China has been seen as one of the authoritarian regime's few allies.
...
"The idea that the Chinese would turn their backs on the North Koreans is clearly wrong," says Adam Segal, the Maurice R. Greenberg senior fellow for China studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.
....
Pyongyang is economically dependent on China, which provides most of its food and energy supplies. North Korea gets about 70 percent of its food and 70 to 80 percent of its fuel from China. Beijing is Pyongyang's largest trading partner, and an estimated 300,000 North Koreans live in China, many of them migrant workers who send much-needed remittances back home.
China is also a strong political ally.
China and Its President Greeted by a Host of Indignities
ReplyDeletewashington post
If only the White House hadn't given press credentials to a Falun Gong activist who five years ago heckled Hu's predecessor, Jiang Zemin, in Malta. Sure enough, 90 seconds into Hu's speech on the South Lawn, the woman started shrieking, "President Hu, your days are numbered!" and "President Bush, stop him from killing!"
Bush and Hu looked up, stunned. It took so long to silence her -- a full three minutes -- that Bush aides began to wonder if the Secret Service's strategy was to let her scream herself hoarse. The rattled Chinese president haltingly attempted to continue his speech and television coverage went to split screen.
The protocol-obsessed Chinese leader suffered a day full of indignities -- some intentional, others just careless. The visit began with a slight when the official announcer said the band would play the "national anthem of the Republic of China" -- the official name of Taiwan.
Then there were the intentional slights. China wanted a formal state visit such as Jiang got, but the administration refused,
The Chinese had warned the White House to be careful about who was admitted to the ceremony. To no avail: They granted a one-day pass to Wang Wenyi of the Falun Gong publication Epoch Times. A quick Nexis search shows that in 2001, she slipped through a security cordon in Malta protecting Jiang (she had been denied media credentials) and got into an argument with him. The 47-year-old pathologist is expected to be charged today with attempting to harass a foreign official.
Bush apologized to the angry Chinese leader in the Oval Office.
Hu was in no mood to make concessions. In negotiations, he gave the U.S. side nothing tangible on delicate matters such as the nuclear problems in North Korea and Iran, the Chinese currency's value and the trade deficit with China.
it gets worse towards the end.
The meeting in the Oval Office brought more of the same. In front of the cameras, Bush thanked Hu for his "frankness" -- diplomatic code for disagreement -- and Hu stood expressionless.
annie,
ReplyDeleteI compared the article you linked and what you pasted, and it is obvious that you changed the text to make it look different than the actual article. Is falsifying your facts what you need to support your point of view? Here is the actual text of the pertinent part of the article which you modified:
"Bush apologized to the angry Chinese leader in the Oval Office. "Frankly, we moved on," National Security Council official Dennis Wilder told reporters later. It was, he said, a "momentary blip."
Maybe, but Hu was in no mood to make concessions. In negotiations, he gave the U.S. side nothing tangible on delicate matters such as the nuclear problems in North Korea and Iran, the Chinese currency's value and the trade deficit with China."
Your modification tries to make it seem the outburst had a direct effect on Hu's negotiations which is preposerous because all actual agreements are made by lower level staff before the big wigs make a photo op of what is already agreed.
Not only that, but you use one phrase in your followup excerpt to make it seem that Hu didn't have anything good to say. Strangely, the full excerpt states something differently:
'The meeting in the Oval Office brought more of the same. In front of the cameras, Bush thanked Hu for his "frankness" -- diplomatic code for disagreement -- and Hu stood expressionless. The two unexpectedly agreed to take questions from reporters, but Bush grew impatient as Hu gave a long answer about trade, made all the longer by the translation. Bush at one point tapped his foot on the ground. "It was a very comprehensive answer," he observed when Hu finished.
Last came the unofficial state luncheon. After the butter heirloom corn broth and the ginger-scented dumplings had been consumed, Hu rose with a toast that proclaimed he and Bush had "reached a broad and important agreement on China-U.S. relations."'
You blew your credibility. Go back to your universe which you have stated is different from the one we live in.
I've actually questioned before in this blog why North Korea wasn't invaded before Iraq
ReplyDeleteI summised it was maybe because of oil
This past 10 days 5 ladies of the night have been murdered by a serial killer in the UK, it take up at least 50% of the news
yesterday 40% of the rest was taken up by Lady Di
Not a mention of the 120 Iraqis kidnapped, the bloody crickets more important !
How many Iraqis have been killed in the last 10 days?
maybe 600 +
Why do 5 ladies of the night with serious drug problems make the headlines?
It reminds me of ToB's last post about Jerry Springer
The western media is bullshit
We are too precious and thin skinned to accept the real media out there
I was in the Tamil areas of Sri Lanka last year helping victims of the Tsunami, google Sri Lanka news and see the death and destruction over there just now
Why oh why are we being spoon fed cotton wool lined media?
Merry xmas all,
tis the season to be jolly,
Steve
Ex Gulf Vet and disgusted at the continuing war crimes by Bush and Blair
May you both rot in hell
The media goes for headlines that attracts the audience that matters to them. To be brutally frank, most of the people in the west listening to the headline news care more about the 5 dead prostitutes in England than the hundreds of Iraqis dead. They care more about long dead Pricess Diana than all the kidnapped Iraqis. But it applies to the west for their own issues as well. Over 100 Americans die every day in car accidents. Do you see that in headline news? People are dying constantly at the Mexican border in the fight to provide Americans the drugs they demand. Do you hear that in headline news? Take heart. Things are not as bad as they seem in headline news in Iraq. The Iraqi politicians are trying to resolve the problem of Sadr, whose militias are causing the bulk of the deaths and incarcerations, at the top level. Soldiers are adapting to the field of battle from examples like the use of silly string to detect trip wires to the creation of multi-service communication centers in the sky to help coordinate ground forces specifically against IEDs and insurgents. Morale is still high, and 26 million Iraqis aren't being killed off or driven away as fast as the news would have you believe. The USA is in Iraq for the long haul no matter what anybody thinks, and the Iraqis, in general, control their own future. They just need a leader who will have them take to the streets like the Iraqi soccer team wins did and take them back from the minority of extremists.
ReplyDeleteTreasure,
ReplyDeleteI read all the comments. What a mixture, A giant jigsaw puzzle of speculation, opinion, guesses, and partial truths. I admit I don't know any more than anyone of the posters claims to know the "real truth". That's my point why I return to my familiar theme of "trust in God".
I admit I'm still partial to bruno's comments outside of yours because he keeps them short and reasonable so I can understand.
I also appreciate anton's links to the Utube, I watched 4 of the 5 parts.
And Annie had my alltime favorite recommendation on Googlevideo, Nightmare of Terror, but the BBC.
best regards,
Edo River rising
Sang J. Moon
ReplyDeleteI kinda agree with you but also disagree
The media is a form of propa ganda, its all wishy washy bollocks
Our unfortunate prostitutes x 5 who were murdered in southern England, they have narrowed it down to 50 possible suspects, and the big news today was that one was 3 months pregnant ... very sad stuff indeed
Today as irony would have it my beloved football team, Leeds United were playing in the area the girls were murdered, and before the game with Ipswich Town was played, the fans had one minutes of silence - how lovely, a bunch of football fans, paying tribute to 5 prostitutes, all on drugs as I believe, 1 preggers, who were society outcasts a few weeks before, fined by the legal system, your average Jo Bloggs thinking how sad these girls were, waste of space even ? A bit of media spin, and a bunch of drunken football fans have to stay silent for a minute..... imagine if Iraq had a football league? They'd have so many 1 minute silences they'd never get kicked off ... bloody ell Bob eh ?
Well excuse me for being thick skinned here, but my arguments with Annie here, going back to the TV thread. she said that astonishing really how few had posted on the picture of the dad holding his dead child, this for me wasn't worth posting on, its the simple case of actions speak louder than words, and I'd have found myself saying some superlative about the 2 eejits AKA Tony and Georgie anyway (hang the pair of them - first by the balls?)
I mentioned I was helping Tsunami victims last year.... the area I was in is in full civil war, last week on 2 separate days over 60 people died....not mentioned much on the media here
The Tsunami showed the power of tv and media as much as Live Aid did in 84... why not have a bloody live aid annually to raise funds for poverty hit countries, which Iraq will soon become as the infrastructure is fucked, money is short, food getting scarce, diseases starting to set in
Iraqs barely getting a mention
Why, as human beings who re experts at the after event, why can't forward thinkers be listened to a little more
If the producers/editors of media over here in the West had the bollocks like Treasure of Baghdad and his many friends and colleagues who also blog and help educate the outside world, we would have news that is fair and reflective of this blue spinning thing we are all on
birthright??? it seems to me this is the case to how you are looked upon, if you are Asian, its pot luck to if you are allowed a fair crack at your time on planet earth, you either starve to death, get terrorised by your leaders, invaded by foreigners, or if you haven't been finished off by an occupational bunch of thugs, they'll sent a Tsunami or earthquake to finish you off ! Some made it into the UK in the 50's and 60's and build lots of shops on corners, and a lot became doctors... I'd hate to think how the National Health here would run if we never had an Asian Origin Doctors? Is it by chance the Majority of Asians are very Entrepreneurial, and hard working, we over here are sloth's in comparison - bring it on if you want a debate !
Me, I look at all humans as equals, I've never met a world leader, so I cannot tell any of them what I think of them, its hard to find 1 I really respect... they all seem to be lunatics in one way or another
I don't believe in god, I've served in Ireland and the first gulf war so I cannot be exactly called left wing or a socialist
I just think that this planet sucks when we allow our media and politicians to act in such a diabolical inhumane way and the media don't want to upset us, or is it that we care more about our own, regardless of whether on the big picture, what has happened at home when you look at the world on a single stage, falls into insignificance - we are creatures who like to gather in packs and cliques, and being proud of your nation is a must, being seen to be against the system is anarchy, you are just a hippy socialist
Quite a deep statement, but North Korea, along with Israel, Saudi, China, Israel, India and Pakistan, scare the life out of me actually all holding weapons of mass destruction - when Iraq appeared to be getting back on its feet after 90/91 and as history will show no weapons of mass destruction were found, apart from the ones the Americans and Brits shipped in 3 years ago to kill those bad Iraqi guys, and Iraq is a major provider of the World
I'm fortunate enough to be able to call Treasure of Baghdad a friend...
I'm sure we will meet 1 day...
This man is a legend and a personal thank you for continuing to keep us updated with the real updates, those of us out here who give a shit follow, the others choose to watch the watered down version on our News channels ... cue Jerry Springer
If I've offended anyone by this post, you haven't been reading properly, in which case I don't really give a shit
Nothing better than a bit of healthy debate ;=)
Kind regards
Steve
moonie
ReplyDeleteYour modification tries to make it seem the outburst had a direct effect on Hu's negotiations which is preposerous because all actual agreements are made by lower level staff before the big wigs make a photo op of what is already agreed.
you are absurd. i copy pasted much of the article and i think it was very clear, especially from the title of the article the impact on many aspects of the snub of HU by the WH. so, you say lower level staff make all actual agreement between the US and china? interesting perspective.
You blew your credibility. Go back to your universe which you have stated is different from the one we live in.
why, so no one can debunk your pathetical revisionist history?
steve
Why do 5 ladies of the night with serious drug problems make the headlines?
because the PTO doesn't want us to look at iraq, and when they do this is the kind of crap they want you to believe (hat tip moonie) .....
Things are not as bad as they seem in headline news in Iraq.
and this wacko is telling me i've lost my credibility!!
Why oh why are we being spoon fed cotton wool lined media?
because someone wants us to believe the illusion so we won't notice reality. here is an excellent example....
26 million Iraqis aren't being killed off or driven away as fast as the news would have you believe.
oh really? and what news is having us believe this? the one that feeds us diana? the only reason we get a smidgen of the horrors of iraq is because the nightmare is too large to hide, like a festering wound that is oozing pus in the middle of your face. once we start the fallujahing of baghdad are you going to tell us its all the big bad media? or do you think it will trickle out after the fact like it did at fallujah, or the death squads who's tactics we imported via negroponte?
The USA is in Iraq for the long haul no matter what anybody thinks,
oh i think everyone knows all to well this bs about escalating to prepare for our departure is smoke and mirrors. anyone who thinks the neocon fascist are planning on leaving iraq before the subjection of the populace and the resources is living in a dream world.
the Iraqis, in general, control their own future.
you mean by giving up control to the government puppets and their lords behind the occupation. they don't control their own future if their desire is to be free of foreign occupation , control and rip off investment.
They just need a leader who will have them take to the streets like the Iraqi soccer team wins did and take them back from the minority of extremists.
blowhard
[sang j. moon]"Take heart. Things are not as bad as they seem in headline news in Iraq."
ReplyDeleteExcuuuuuse me!?! Come again? Bcs the media doesn't give ALL the news doesn't mean that u jump on the opportunity to give us your own views on the situation there neither. U do not own the truth bcs u do not have it.
And YES it is going from bad to worse in Iraq whether u or G. W. Bush like it or not.
FYI, we r back to square one in Iraq right now on how to solve the security problem & who to nominate in place of the actual ministers (exactly like 7 months ago in May).
"The Iraqi politicians are trying to resolve the problem of Sadr, whose militias are causing the bulk of the deaths and incarcerations, at the top level."
The problem of Sadr will remain standing as long as the problems which caused its birth remain. Namely the foreign occupation, the inexistant perspectives for the country's developpment, the inexistence of a strong central State, ...etc. As for the deaths & the death squads, it is not only Sadr's men who r wreaking this havoc, but also America's buddies the Badrists, & also corrupt IA, IP & ING officers & soldiers who r litteraly neglecting their duties apart for upsetting the people or watch them carelessly getting kidnapped in broad daylight for ransom!!! Of course not to mention the US forces who r keeping low profile on all these violations.
If they r unable to stop this bloodshed & keep the security in Iraq, why r they still hanging around then? Is this Bush's democracy? Do u really think we r going to accept this situation forever?
"Morale is still high, and 26 million Iraqis aren't being killed off or driven away as fast as the news would have you believe."
I'm afraid u will have to review this ridiculous statement of yours.
"The USA is in Iraq for the long haul no matter what anybody thinks, and the Iraqis, in general, control their own future. They just need a leader who will have them take to the streets like the Iraqi soccer team wins did and take them back from the minority of extremists."
NO! I don't think that any occupation force will be able to remain in an occupied territory for long. We r not in the 17th, 18th or even 19th century anymore. Wake up! We r in the 21st century. The one that the Americans claimed too hastily as to being the American Century.
The last mid-term elections showed the level the actual Bush adm has reached in its moral & political bankruptcy. & through that look to what abyss your beloved adm has got us Iraqis into. Yet u claim that we control our future. Nice metaphore indeed.
What i see is a post -yours- full of fallacies. & i have only one thing to tell u & your American forces:
Since it is u who r the main cause for all our problems, then ...
GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!
---
Saad
i was checking out the windfalls of the war site from the center for public integrity and any one of those links gives you insight into exactly the kind of cronyism and crime was transported to iraq (don't miss an old carlyle mercenary company vinnelli who trained the first IA troops) when i stumbled apon this tidy bit of info i thought might be rrelevant to the media brohau to give any casual seeker an idea how contolled our press is, and from whom..(a little outdated but informative nonethe less)
ReplyDeletehere
Since February 2003, SAIC has been in charge of the Iraqi Reconstruction and Development Council, a Pentagon-sanctioned group made up of Iraqis that is effectively functioning as the country's temporary government. The senior members of IRDC hold positions at each of 23 Iraqi ministries, where they work closely with U.S. and British officials, including L. Paul Bremer, head of the Coalition Provisional Authority. The Council's official task is to rebuild the structures of a government that are expected to eventually be handed over to an independent Iraqi authority. Members of the IRDC are officially employed by SAIC.
Another Pentagon contract calls for SAIC to, in effect, rebuild Iraq's mass media, including television stations, radio stations and newspapers. SAIC runs the "Voice of the New Iraq," the radio station established in April 2003 at Umm Qasr that is funded by the U.S. government.
Just how the company is going about the task of rebuilding Iraq's media and the overall cost remains a mystery, however. The Pentagon has steadfastly refused to release any specific information on SAIC's media reconstruction work, which has been dubbed the Iraqi Media Network. What little information that has leaked out about the SAIC effort has come mainly from disgruntled employees and press freedom advocates, who have charged the company has bungled the job badly. One report said SAIC had ordered equipment that was incompatible with existing systems in Iraq. SAIC, which appears to have little experience in mass media, was also reported to have been caught flat-footed on programming for the reconstructed network. Its initial solution was to enlist Voice of America, the foreign language broadcasting service of the U.S. government, to patch together a short nightly news show made up entirely of dubbed stories from U.S. television network news shows. There have also been widespread complaints from press freedom organizations about the SAIC effort, including charges of military censorship and cronyism.
SAIC has been awarded seven contracts by the Defense Department to provide experts and advisers on development of representative government in Iraq; restore and upgrade the country's broadcast media; and provide a group of Iraqi expatriates to assist coalition officials working in the country. The value of the contracts, which were obtained by the Center for Public Integrity under the Freedom of Information Act, was blacked out in copies provided by the Defense Department. A Pentagon FOIA officer said keeping the information secret "was an appropriate way to avoid substantial competitive harm to the contractor" and was "due to the sensitive nature of the Iraqi contracts." SAIC officials referred all media calls to the Pentagon.
well, first we make the news, then we report it the way we want it digested. the news used to be about reporting what was happening. but it does appear somewhat like the people charges w/reporting the news are also paying the people who they are writing about. and exactly what they are paying them to do remains... a mystery
Saad
ReplyDeleteAm I allowed to visit as a guest one day? ;=)
We are not all narrow minded
I'm glad I'm not married to Annie, we'd do nothing but talk about Iraq all day and agree, marriages never work when there are no arguments!
Kind regards
Steve
To moonie moon,
ReplyDeleteI forgot to put one last piece of info to my post on the Iraqi politicans. I saw annie's post so i think this might be interesting.
Last month, just like many other times before in the Green Zone, security members of one of the so-called Sunnis policians, were arrested. Reason? That was in connection to the retrieval of a... car-bomb ready for deployment in his garage within the GZ...!
Everyone enters the GZ is thoroughly searched, even the politicians & their security. But these were exceptionally not that day. Unbelievable, right?
Well stories of that sort r full in Baghdad.
This kind of info will NEVER reach the media.
(The same applies for the behaviour of an American unit in an Iraqi court last October when they stormed it in an illegal action & released convicts from it!!! Nothing on that in the Am media either.)
On other occasions car-bombs DID explode in the GZ before. Culprits were never found (or that is at least what the media says).
But then s.o. comes to tell us here that Iraqis control their future or some rubbish of that sort..
---
Saad
btw, these companies are war profitters. many of the jobs they do used to be done by our own military much cheaper. they also rob iraqis from work. they also create a barrier between crimes committed in iraq and the people who carry them out. for example, a private mercenary contractor training iraqis is supposed to distance the troops from carrying out war crimes.
ReplyDelete[steve of the golf ...]"Saad
ReplyDeleteAm I allowed to visit as a guest one day? ;=)"
U will be more than welcome :)
"We are not all narrow minded"
Good, u felt that also?
"I'm glad I'm not married to Annie, we'd do nothing but talk about Iraq all day and agree, marriages never work when there are no arguments!"
At least u agree with s.o. on s. th. :)
Concerning arguements, I'm sure u will find some detail where everyone will be happy arguing about...
---
Saad
is supposed to distance the troops from carrying out war crimes.
ReplyDeletei meant US troops
I'm glad I'm not married to Annie, we'd do nothing but talk about Iraq all day and agree, marriages never work when there are no arguments!
steve, how sweet. actually when i am not at my keyboard i tend to try to enjoy life to the fullest (like last night!). i don't hang out w/people who have a different views than mine regarding iraq, which is very easy in the western city i live in. in general i limit my social interactions to people i find intellectually stimulating who are also fun and charismatic. you must be younger than me if you find discord stimulating. life is too short to argue w/friends and soul mates.
i'm sure we would get along swimmingly!
Annnie, throws this chat up line to steve..... i limit my social interactions to people i find intellectually stimulating who are also fun and charismatic. you must be younger than me if you find discord stimulating. life is too short to argue w/friends and soul mates.
ReplyDeletei'm sure we would get along swimmingly!
Well bugger me Bob Annie, I'm a 1965 baby, which makes me about 29
I was called insane last year when at a Charity Directors meeting I told the board, 'I don't like people'
I don't !
People are narrow minded thick skinned blindfolded and pretty stupid
Glad you share my opinions on the whole,
Hope you're not 94 years old!
LOVE STEVE XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Married with 3 kids and slightly mad !
ok, here's some commentary on american living for you. a little OT but check out the poll. go vote!
ReplyDeleteIntroducing: The Whiny Pissbag family
i'm not sure if you have to register @ the site to vote in the poll.
The US watches all nations and there activities ...
ReplyDeletefiring missiles
in the direction of Japan will
draw attention as will troop buildups along 38 parallel.
As North Korea invaded the South once before it deserves special
attention ...
If Kim -Jong-Il wants to be the greatest leader in Korean history
he need only appear at the UN and
announce he seeks to peacefully
reconcile with South Korea and
ask for UN assistance in negotiating say a 10 year plan to
unify both countries in an organized methodical manner in which economic/political/cultural
differences can be debated and discussed openly in both countries
and where the South Koreans can vote on the proposals ....
If Ho-Chi-Minh dis this in the early 1960s he would have saved
well over 2 million lives ...
All these divided nations
(divided by the Europeans by the
way NOT THE USA)
have to do is to stand for gradual peaceful re-unification where
the merger of economic/political and cultural aspects can be fare
to both sides ... and of course
both populations can vote on
the proposals.
Lets see now do you knee-jerk
anti-American fools
really want to compare South Korea
and North Korea ???
Lets start with % of population
with access to University level
eduaction ... modern medicine
electricity ... clean water
ability to elect government
officials
Let the comparisons begin ...
go for it.
So 38,000 Americans are on South Korean soil ... So What do
you know what it means ... it means
38,000 LESS South Koreans have to serve in the South Korean Army !!!
It means South Korea does not have to pay for and support those additional 38,000 soldiers !!!
South Korea is "occupied" like
west germany was "occupied" in the cold war years ... US men and US taxpayer dollars providing security and giving the host nations economy a chance to flourish ... (by not having an immediate drain for defense purposes)
wich by the way
Saad they BOTH DID.
If Iraq factions reconcile the same
model would apply to Iraq ...
The US forces would assume responsability of Iraqi airspace
and deterrrence from Syria and Iran
thereby giving the Iraqi economy
a chance to put its own resources
to Humanitarian projets like
Hospitals residential housing
electricity/water and sewage.
Then with an agreement with the ELECTED Iraqi government at the time new arrangements will be made.
Lets assume US forces leave Iraq
in one month ... does Iraq
have a new airforce now that no one knows about ???
How about defense against Iranian
tanks ...
How about the helicopter squadrons
how will Iraq military function
without them???
Note to Bruno US did NOT accuse
Saddam of having nuclear weapons ...
He was accused of still being in pursuit of nuclear weapons .
Its good to hear that North Koreans
are happy well fed with modern medicine comfortable homes
I can now
dismiss the amnesty international and Human Rights Watch reports
about North Korea ...
I
now feel betrayed by these organizations for the same lies
about human rights abuses by Saddam
I mean talk about Bush's lies about Saddam ... I mean look at all
the lies AI and HRW spewed out
about Saddam over the years !!!
BT and others have made it clear to me that these organizations
fabricate their reports ...
Saddam was a good man ... he shared the wealth of Iraq amongst
his people ... all factions in Iraq
embraced him and each other ...
al-Sadrs father probably fell
down the stairs (tripping on his robe) and
Fat "mookie" made up the
story that he was killed by Saddams
security services.
All this evidence in his trial is made up just ask Raad Jarrar he
calls Saddams trial a "play"
So its a given then those
testifying against Saddam
are Shiite actors ... the trial
is a play !!!
Marshlands being drained thats
the biggest hoax of all ...
The satelite photos have been
doctored Saddam would never
drain the marshes which sustained
the local population!!!
The human rights organizations reports that
In Saddams Iraq between
300,000 and 1 million Iraqi
dead or missing were fabricated
as is the reports about North Korea
and the Sudan/Darfur ...
In fact I now believe the only
Human rights organizations reports that are accurate are the ones concerning the 400 detainees
at GITMO ....
That right Lets review:
1) reports about Saddam ALL LIES
2) reports about North Korea LIES
3) reports about Sudan/Darfur ALL LIES
4) reports about Somalia ALL LIES
5) reports about The Congo ALL LIES
6) reports about Rwanda ALL LIES
7) reports about Idi Amins Uganda
reports about
9) torture at GITMO
spoken from the mouth of GOD
But I will concede the US will not
invade North Korea or Iran
until we have a robotic army
that can be controlled by satelites
and computers ... too many unknowns
too many different factions ....
and too many people to feed
Dear Saad ...
ReplyDeleteThere are many first hand accounts
based on North Koreans who have fled via China about the problems
in North Korea ...
Western TV Journalist DO NOT
have access to all of Korea
Why don't you visit both countries
and report back to us ... I mean
the media is all lies ....
and anyone who thinks that
The main media outlets in the US
are right wing is a bit wacked !!!
You know the media reports
abouth the US Marines in Haditha
is that all lies too ???
Or is only pro-American news
and reporting lies
Any military by USA with regard
ReplyDeleteto North Korea or Iran
will be
0) Take out offensive capability
1) Misslies
2) More Missiles
3) Massive Shelling from Naval Ships
4) Massive air attacks
5) More of 1,2,3,4
Soldiers would then enter
and look for survivors ...
Completely different from Iraq
But as we write this it appears
that the North Koreans have resumed
the six party talks ...
North Korea / Iran
will probably not be
Bushs problem
Saad,
ReplyDeleteI don't even bother with annie any more after annie has shown to be blatant modifier of facts, and now I am about to put you in the same category. You haven't even responded with anything backing up your claim that MacArthur led a failed attack on China in 1948. It sounds like your have same propensity for changing facts as annie.
As for getting out of your country, assuming you are in Iraq, if you represent the Iraqis, fine. I'm for leaving a country of people like you. You honestly think Sadr's militias are going to stop doing the bulk of the killing after the US military leaves? Do you honestly think Al Quaida and its "Shura council" are going to stop the high profile attacks against Shiites when the US leaves? The US is the only thing holding these two groups back. Do you honestly believe it will get better when the US leaves? Tell me exactly how is it going to get better? Will the Iraqi central government suddenly magically stop putting Sadr cronies in head of the security forces the US trains. US commanders on the ground have been the main roadblock to handing over more of the trained Iraqi security forces because they have seen how the relatively few that have been handed over have been used to round up Sunnis instead of preventing overall violence. If the US leaves and hands over these forces wholesale, the current level of death and violence from Sadr forces will look relatively calm by comparison. And Al Quaida's plan to drive Sunnis to their cause to protect them from the Shiites they incite will succeed and Iraq will have a real civil war with hundreds of times the number of refugees now, full scale armies fighting over territory with firepower that will level buildings in whole cities. Take a look at the Lebanese Civil War in the history books if you think what Iraq has now is bad. The Lebanese Civil War gives you a good idea of what will come next. Neighboring countries will send in their armies to support their influence, and then Iraq will no longer exist as a single country. Iran and Syria will take their chunk. The Kurds will finally have their own homeland from their chunk, and the Sunni neighbors like Saudi Arabia are going to join the wolves tearing apart Iraq to fend off the Shiite threat. Is this truly what you want? If so and if you represent Iraqis, fine. The US shouldn't spend a single resource more for such idiots.
I don't even bother with annie any more after annie has shown to be blatant modifier of facts, and now I am about to put you in the same category.
ReplyDeletewell that would have been an improvement over your extended stupid blathering post. instead of not bothering you did just the oppostie. please oh please just keep your word and don't bother. you are a waste, a blubbering ear mongering fool.
Lets see now do you knee-jerk anti-American fools really want to compare South Korea and North Korea ???
i don't know do we, are we ? nice strawman set up for your extended screed.
loony moonie, make that FEAR mongering post, not ear mongering.
ReplyDeleteSang J. Moon
ReplyDeleteWhat a dissapointing post
I don't like seeing healthy debates turned into personal slurs
Annie and Saad are regulars on this blog
America, and my homeland have committed horrific War Crimes, and you appear to be in a patriotic wishy washy haze
Had the USA and UK not invaded Iraq illegally they wouldnt be in this mess in the first place
Don't try and look into this situation with red, white and blue tainted sunglasses on, not only will the informed ridicule you, you'll start to look very foolish.
I'm all for debates as I said, either put your point up based on facts, or shut up....
No wonder some Iraqis (and Arabs)detest the West so much - If I was an Iraqi I'd not be too fond of the West either
Well the politicians that is, your average human is ok over here
Goes back to my last post, I cannot think of 1 world leader who impresses me just now, they are all a bit potty... love to be proved wrong on that, but is their a sensible, clever leader on earth
Nah, I don't think so
Kind regards
Steve
blatant modifier of facts
ReplyDeletesince you have chosen to rehash this bs AGAIN i am calling you out on it AGAIN. i did not copy the entire article but nothing i quoted or didn't quote changed or altered the main thrust of the piece what so ever. i didn't find it relevant to print this ""Frankly, we moved on," National Security Council official Dennis Wilder told reporters later. It was, he said, a "momentary blip." or this.."Wilder pleaded for understanding.. "Some people today want to see a quick fix to the trade imbalance," he explained. "But in the new global economy there is no quick fix."
because it was irrelevant to my point in the post, which was to refute your rediculous comment made here.
That is why he treated their leader with more than usual dignity
more than usual dignity?????? oh, like the way they flew the old south vetnamese flag when they visited vietnam? the article sites many examples of the way THEY DID NOT treat hu (the PRESIDENT of the FRIGGIN CHINA ) to even standard dignity! like a FORMAL DINNER for example!!
to the point of apologizing for a Falun Gong protester's outburst during one public meeting in the USA.
to the point of?? your kidding me right? do you have any idea how they vet press at these affairs? what fairyland do you come from that you think the press credentials of reporters given access the to WH are not thoroughly vetted???? are you implying that a representative of Falun Gong publication Epoch Times just slipped past the notice of the PTB?? are you so clueless that the same people who set up 'mission accomplished' banner might not also actually arrange these little faux pas to send a message about things like human rights for example??
and it was just a slght slip of protocal that official announcer said the band would play the "national anthem of the Republic of China" -- the official name of TAIWAN. ??????
pleeease! they don't grab WH staff from the local high schools! i assume you're familiar w/chinas relationship w/taiwan, and ours right? the visit was marred by countless rude occurances so much so that it was duly noted and you mention it as if it was the OPPOSITE.
and then you accuse me as a 'blatant 'modifer of facts'? cat calling keetle black.
you got a bone to pick w/my POINT, that is one thing, but don't try sliding out of your BS by accusing me of distorting reality.
bush snubbed hu, and everyone knew it. including you. leaving out the comment of some official who after the fact was trying to cover bushes ass is totally irrelevant.
that said, i can perfectly understand why you would wish to ignore me, i hope you do. but i on the other hand will continue to refute whatever BS of your i feel like.
Blimey
ReplyDeleteHell hath no fury like a woman scorned
Now all we need is Saad to wake up and we'll have a right old flame war
I don't think you'll be invited round for dinner Moony - I am !
Kind regards
Steve
[moonie moon]"You honestly think Sadr's militias are going to stop doing the bulk of the killing after the US military leaves? Do you honestly think Al Quaida and its "Shura council" are going to stop the high profile attacks against Shiites when the US leaves? The US is the only thing holding these two groups back. Do you honestly believe it will get better when the US leaves? Tell me exactly how is it going to get better? Will the Iraqi central government suddenly magically stop putting Sadr cronies in head of the security forces the US trains. US commanders on the ground have been the main roadblock to handing over more of the trained Iraqi security......etc."
ReplyDeleteAll this bla bla just to tell me that I'm wrong in opposing the US occupation of my country? Well I'm not convinced. Many Iraqis & me oppose this foreign occupation. I don't remember having had these problems & this messy situation before the Americans came. & exactly like we Iraqis opposed the occupation of our Army of our Iranian & Kuwaiti neighbours back 20 years ago, we oppose this occupation also.
It is either u r on the side of the rights of peoples to live freely in their own countries or u r NOT. & if u r on the latter's side then it is obvious on whose side u r. & for this reason, I'm not going to discuss this very clear subject with u anymore. Understood?
"The Lebanese Civil War gives you a good idea of what will come next. Neighboring countries will send in their armies to support their influence, and then Iraq will no longer exist as a single country."
Once again with your endless bla bla bla. All that to justify a foreign occupation. FYI, Iraq IS FALLING APART right now. How come we never exerienced that before the Americans came in? I suppose u r going to tell me that the US has nothing to do with it. All the same as above. Americans should leave my country alone & u must choose whether u r with us the free Iraqis on this or not.
---
Saad
Saad: "u must choose whether u r with us the free Iraqis on this or not."
ReplyDeleteAre the free Iraqis the ones who voted for a constitution & representative government last year, or the ones who want to put Iraq back under an oppressive thumb by blowing up and murdering scores of them daily? I'm with the former.
We voted last year to get our FREEDOM back & the Americans OUT. U see now where we r. No need to play thick head to see that. So don't u game with me with these words, you!
ReplyDeleteU want to help us Iraqis free our country from foreign occupation or not? R u with us on this or not?
So make your choice or SHUT UP!
---
Saad
Rhus says....
ReplyDeleteAre the free Iraqis the ones who voted for a constitution & representative government last year, or the ones who want to put Iraq back under an oppressive thumb by blowing up and murdering scores of them daily? I'm with the former
And Santa is most definatly dead, a short reply to a complicated wider picture Rhus- if only it were that simple
There is a 3rd option, if we are living in hairy fairy land of dreams, go back to how it was prior to the illegal occupation of 3 years ago
I'm not an Iraqi, but if I were I'd probably have him as my leader
Better the devil you know, privatly hate his guts, and say nothing publicly
In todays Iraq you don't have a choice, everythings a mess
I don't think Iraqis really had a choice about constitution and Governments, they were invaded and thrown some ballot slips with some puppets thrown in for good measure
Excellent idea in theory (well not really) but the realisim of it was it was doomed from day 1
Kind regards
Steve
Saad: "U want to help us Iraqis free our country from foreign occupation or not? R u with us on this or not?
ReplyDeleteSo make your choice or SHUT UP!"
I'm for the MNF helping your elected government and legitimate security forces stabilize your country and help you achieve the peace and prosperity you deserve. When they are ready, we will leave.
I am not for le Resistance attacking Iraqi civilians, government officials, security forces, infrastructure, OR MNF forces because these efforts are only helping Iraq fill its cemetaries (and ours, to a much much smaller extent).
Steve: "There is a 3rd option, if we are living in hairy fairy land of dreams, go back to how it was prior to the illegal occupation of 3 years ago"
ReplyDeleteThe Shiites want to stretch Dear Leader's neck. They have a few legitimate reasons to want that.
The "American" guys on the ballot were soundly defeated. Instead, Iraqis voted for their religious leaders' recommendations, which may not have been the best choices overall. In time, they'll get better candidates and they'll know how to choose them.
[steve ...golf vacations]"I don't think Iraqis really had a choice about constitution and Governments, they were invaded and thrown some ballot slips with some puppets thrown in for good measure
ReplyDeleteExcellent idea in theory (well not really) but the realisim of it was it was doomed from day 1."
Thanks Steve. I'll take over from here.
When last year the stupid so-called 'festival' about the constitution was about to start, we Iraqis were all having over-estimated hopes to correct if not all, but at least the most important part of the historical oppression that was lain on us since centuries. Unfortunately it all turned into a nightmare. From the beginning the Islamists wanted to monopolise the writing & the formulating of the document. One of their enturbanned prominent figures even went to say very loudly that they r going to write the Constitution following 'their' OWN VISIONS!!! Well, this shows volumes of un-hidden intentions. & so it happened till the end of the mascarade. In the end it wasn't a Constitution that we got any more. Abu Qutada (the UK imprisoned muslim fanatic) would have hardly fared better in similar circumstances.
Moreover, the funniest (or angriest) happened. To get the minimum vote for some controversial articles, & for which the debates & discussions where far from being over, the Islamists played a game of hide & seek in the Parliament. They intentionally kept the most active opposition members outside the voting premisses while their own inside at the VERY moment of the beginning of the voting on the articles. So with an illegal manoeuver they managed to get these articles voted in the document!!! All this was happening while Ambassador Khalil-Zadeh who was keen in being present during all the debates in Parliament (to stuff his hooter in the debates naturally) was not present that day! & i don't know what happened to the Parliament's chairman neither. Maybe TB can enlighten us more about the irregularities that happened in Parliament in these black days (& nights). Needless to say with what taste in the mouth these news left us Iraqis.
This is just a sample of how the Constitution was written last year. & we r still trying to get these controversial parts re-written bcs a Constitution is a contract organising the relation btw the society/individuals & the State. Not a tool to oppress everybody.
Is this the kind of democracy the Americans promised us in Iraq?
They say that they r against the Mullah regime in Iran. But here they r allowing the same copy to establish itself in Iraq. So how should we understand this contradiction? R they hard against the mullahs as such or as an exception they would tolerate the whole mullah idea the minute the latter puts itself in their service? & they even allowed them to hold elctions in Iraq, present their candidates & commit unacceptable irregularities (like the assassination & agression of the opponents or even the burning of their offices by using the IP!!!). If this is that, then the Americans & their Iraqi mullahs SHOULD LEAVE Iraq sooner than later. Today before tomorrow. Or else they haven't seen a real insurgency yet!
---
Saad
RhusLancia
ReplyDelete''The "American" guys on the ballot were soundly defeated. Instead, Iraqis voted for their religious leaders' recommendations, which may not have been the best choices overall. In time, they'll get better candidates and they'll know how to choose the''
Nah cannot agree, most Iraqi bloggers call the elected officials 'the puppet government'
If you have an iota of intelligence or qualifications in Iraq you get assasinated or kidnapped, or basically you are left with no option but to leave the country
2-3 weeks ago, en mass 120 people were kidnapped at the University, 3-4 days ago about the same number of shopkeeprs and businessmen were kidnapped, and today I hear murmers that another few dozen, this time medics (?) were seized
The only real option is to get rid of the troops to barracks and if things calm down, they can go home.... its unrealistic to withdraw them all at once, but there again, with mass kidnappings taking place, it doesn't really seem they have any amount of control anyway
The infrastrucure has gone, and in a few months there will be a flood of refugees pouring out of Iraq, people will be so desperate to get out they'll probably be prepapred to be shot at the borders ?
I have no idea who you think would be qualified enough to move the country forward - is their anyone left... ???
As for religious leaders, let them pray to Allah/ God/ Buddah or Elvis - they don't strike me as people who can do politics
I don't know how much of the above is true, but what I do know is there are no easy answers, and it needs a very clever leader to sort this mess out
Bring back Maggie Thatcher, she'd sort it out in the blink of an eyelid !
That lady had balls, although she too had her flaws
As for North Korea, they don't have too much oil do they ?
Kind regards
Steve
Thanks Saad for explaining the guts of it all in concise detail
ReplyDeleteAmericans & Iraqi mullahs OUT !!!
Regards
Steve
[rhuslancia]"I'm for the MNF helping your elected government and legitimate security forces stabilize your country and help you achieve the peace and prosperity you deserve. When they are ready, we will leave."
ReplyDeleteOh thanks for the 'noble' feelings. U really expect me to believe this hairy fairy tale of yours? So u excuse me if i don't believe a word of what u say.
U lot have been repeating that for the last 3.5 years. What did we get? Everything is getting from bad to worse to worser. The security situation is in shambles. U failed miserably & there is no second chance. So its time u pack your things & get out.
As for the so-called 'legitimate' security forces, they have turned from their original job to a tool of kidnapping people in broad daylight under the very noses of your 'helpful' US forces. Is that what u mean by 'help the legitimate security forces'? R u really blind or r u pulling my leg?
We Iraqis want u Americans to LEAVE NOW! With N-O-W we mean straight away, NOT tomorrow. And we mean bloody business. Understood?
---
Saad
Saad blasts out.....
ReplyDeleteWe Iraqis want u Americans to LEAVE NOW! With N-O-W we mean straight away, NOT tomorrow. And we mean bloody business. Understood?
---
And I'll add.......
''what part of NOW would you like explained?''
Kind regards
Steve
To the bunch of funnies in this comment section still defending the US decision to stay & 'help' Iraq at all costs & whatever number of Iraqi bodies found...
ReplyDeletehttp://iraqiscreen.blogspot.com/
Start by reading the first subject called 'Leave the House', then all the other subjects after that. It is a description of the situation in Iraq under the American-Islamist joug...
---
Saad
according to the new york times my country, america via the evil dick cheney is floating the idea of exterminating sunnis. ethnic cleansing american style, and this is how its packaged, as a darwin solution. of course it isn't survival of the fitest w/america backing one side, is it?
ReplyDeleteevil masterstroke
america , the nazis would be proud.
sorry for the bummer news, do you think america wil notice what w/the holidays and all.
Hi Saad
ReplyDeleteMore and more Iraqis are now blogging, its awesome, Riverbend was the first one everyone followed, now she seems to have gone to ground and is posting less and less.
While she has posted less, Iraqi bloggers seem to have multiplied, many many dozens
Its sickening, and saddening to read these first hand accounts of the situation out there
I, like you, am mystified how anyone can justify what has gone on before, and claim that the occupying forces are somehow doing some good deed
utter utter shite....
Soldiers, who truth be known, don't want to be there (well most) Iraqis don't want them to be out there, politicians admitting that its a disaster (expept Georgie)
The republicans losing the big vote recently
I'd be delighted to hear anyone with a reasoned opinion to what good any of this has done - why won't politicians leave the Green Zone and walk down Baghdad High street, why does Tony Blair and Co fly to Iraq and not walk in downtown Basra and take all the plaudits for this good deed ?
I'll tell you why, he'll get a video on Youtube quicker than you could say 'George Bush is a wanker' with his brains being splattered all over the street
Americans & Iraqi mullahs OUT !!!
Kind regards
Steve
oh my my , what a coincidence. moomie tunes get blown out of the water and who should just happen to show up peddleing his same ol same ol crap abot a 'free iraq who voted for their free government total bs"
ReplyDeleterhus has been obsessed w/pushing this stupic POV over at 24's,( check the last two threads) and he's going to move over here and spread his crap to another thread like anyone but his myopic trolling government paid blogging trolls are going to buy this crap.
then he tries to push some crap about baathist equal nazis like were all supposed to fall all over ourselves because the good occupation (and f this stupid multi forces description which we all know is a load of f'ing crap? is fighting nazis
yet he is totally unable to come up w/ANY comparrisons without resorting to PRIOR INVASION UNDER SADAM and when ask exactly HOW MANY of these hard core baathist are we talking about HE WON'T SAY.
meanwhile back in reality america has been supporting american backed puppet government deathsquads targeting sunnis and since this has become ABUNDANTLY OBVIOUS to any casual observer its now being introduced in the nyt, before the holidays, before the big blowout in baghdad.
and he calles the resistance nazis! who's the NAZI RHUS aka moonie
you come here to drag others into your pathetically stupid bs about legitimate government after you play warm up a 24's. go eat shit and die nazi lover
Blimey Annie
ReplyDeleteI think I just had a star trek moment and was beamed back 67 years
First I recieve an email about a Jew Blogger who keeps getting banned
Then Treasure does a post about Jews
And now we have posts about Nazi's
I know Elvis is alive and well, but you'll never make me believe Saddam is Hiltlers love child
Kind regards
Steve
Saad: "a Constitution is a contract organising the relation btw the society/individuals & the State. Not a tool to oppress everybody.
ReplyDeleteIs this the kind of democracy the Americans promised us in Iraq? "
Yes, that's it. An organized relationhip between society/individuals & the State. Freedom, not oppression. Guess what? Al Queda and the insurgency had other ideas, complete with remnants of the old regime, and propped up by those around the world who pray for an American defeat at any cost to Iraq & Iraqis. Le Resistance can do no wrong, as long as they blow up two or three Americans per day.
You want your elected government to erase decades of war, violence, and oppression in only a few months? You want the US to make everything swell, or reinstate Saddam, or neuter the mullahs, when one of the worst possible things we could ever do is go after the bad guys in the mosques where they are hiding?
You want us out today, but tomorrow the Saudis would sweep in to support the Sunnis, the Iranians would sweep in to support the Shia, and we would not have the will or the power to stop it.
RhusLancia
ReplyDeleteI'm really sorry to say this, but Iraq wasn't at war with anyone old bean
American and Co declared war on Iraq because of the WMD issue
Iraq was a country being rebuilt, and a thriving economy
Enter an illegal UN directive, a few 1000 pound bombs, a few accusations and smash bang wallop, you have a few thousand univited guests that have just ripped the heart out of your nation
I would say, George Bush is responsible for more innocent civilians deaths than Saddam ever was
Would you agree?
You are bloody nuts if you say otherwise
With every innocent that is killed on a daily basis, the blood is on your hero's hands
Saddams starting to look like a diamond geezer in comparrison to Bush and Blair and I never thought I'd think such nonsence, but its insanely true
Kind regards
Steve
Steve: "I would say, George Bush is responsible for more innocent civilians deaths than Saddam ever was
ReplyDeleteWould you agree?"
No I wouldn't. The invasion of Iraq cost almost 4,000 Iraqi civilians their lives (1). That's a lot of people, and I'm really sorry about them. But if we ripped out the heart of Iraq, it was because it needed a transplant. Those deaths are tragic but they are truly martyrs for a better Iraq. At that time, the US was welcome by many Iraqis, including most of the Iraqi bloggers I'm aware of. But then al Queda came in and allied itself with leftovers from the deposed regime, hardcore Baathists, would-be jihadis, and others. By any count whatsoever, the "Resistance" has caused many more deaths than the invasion, and some estimates of Saddam's toll on his people are in the millions. I don't know about that, but he was hardly as kind to Iraqis as you'd like to believe.
Luckily Saad and annie don't represent the Iraqis. The Iraqis are diverse and the bulk realize that the violence will only get worse with the USA out in the short term. They don't like relying on the USA but want the USA around long enough until their own security forces can take over.
ReplyDeleteAs for the violence not occurring during Saddam, that is because Saddam was a dictator who was able to provide security through the lack of freedom inherent in his authoritarian government. Saddam crushed any dissent and those he couldn't crush, he played off of each other. He created the pressure cooker which gave birth to Sadr's militias when the lid was removed. He created the preferentially treated Sunnis who find it difficult to accept their lower position on the totem pole. I don't even have to tell you what he did to the Kurds. Saddam's security was the security of a lid clamped down on a pressure cooker instead of a steady state situation which would last when opened to the rest of the world.
Mossad Annie: "oh my my , what a coincidence. moomie tunes get blown out of the water and who should just happen to show up "
ReplyDeleteAre you saying we're the same? We're not. I rarely miss BT's posts, or 24's, but I didn't really want to talk about N. Korea or whatever that odd thing is that's happening between Mossad Annie and Steve. Steve, be wary- she's a Mossad agent posting as part of some "false flag" campaign. Anyway, I joined here because I was interested in Saad's comments. I think I've been in agreement with him in earlier comments, so I was interested in what he had to say.
Mossad Annie: "HOW MANY of these hard core baathist are we talking about HE WON'T SAY."
Because I don't know how many of them there are. I only know that hardcore Baathists are a significant part of the insurgency. This is as plain and true as down is up to Mossad Annie.
I can continue to try to educate you on 24's thread if you like.
Because I don't know how many of them there are.
ReplyDeletewell, that only took you about 5 posts to state. so we have an enemy of unknown quantity we are fighting who are equal in evilness and or tactics to nazis. and that unknown quantity is a significant (in quantity) portion of the resistance. but we don't know really how much.
well, i would like the opinion of an iraqi on this as to how many hardcore baathists (sadamites he calls them) there are out there and if these hardcore baathists make up a significant portion of the resistance. the occupation plus the badr brigades against the nazis. thats some strong imagery.
she's a Mossad agent posting as part of some "false flag" campaign.
too bad you couldn't apply the same creativity to your solutions to this war as you have demonstrated w/this name calling you initiated over at Omar's. it will not be detering me from calling you on your BS.
Mossad Annie: "well, that only took you about 5 posts to state. "
ReplyDeleteIt took you five posts to say you wanted to know the number of hardcore Baathists in the insurgency, and then I answered in my very next post thusly:
Mossad Annie: "so exactly how many hardcore baathists exactly are you claiming there are that you equate w/the ritual extermination practice of nazi's?
...
so, once again, how many hard core baathists are there that resemble nazi's?"
Me: "The answer is still "Most of them". I don't know what "the number is". Why is that important, and why are you asking me?"
Mossad Annie: "too bad you couldn't apply the same creativity to your solutions to this war as you have demonstrated w/this name calling"
Glad you like your name. Of course I mean it with much more light-heartedness than the names you apply to everyone else who disagrees with you.
Creative solutions? I've told you: the RhusLancia Plan for Practice Makes Perfect Democracy (RLPfPMPD), in which Maliki announces a new election for Dec '07 and then every two years after for a period of time, like a decade or so. It can get worse in Iraq overnight, but not better overnight. More frequent elections gives the people a chance to find and elect better leaders, and the leaders have greater accountabilty to the people. The plan is neither pie-in-the-sky nor does it "burn the slogans" of a free & democratic Iraq.
"The answer is still "Most of them". I don't know what "the number is". Why is that important, and why are you asking me?"
ReplyDeletebecause i want to know of course! we know AQ is 2-3%. that does not represent very much. i want to know if it is your belief, or anyones belief that the majority of the resistance is primarily hard core baathists. i have no illusions they don't exist but it is not a definition i hear people applying to themselves. when i ask you how many you think are this nazi like entity and you answer 'most of them' that tells me nothing. i don't hear you claiming the badr brigades are a nazi like entity. so i want to know if you are speaking of specific militias, a group the size of AQ, the bulk of the resistance or what.
because i have heard many people on blog sites call themselves part of the resistance and condem sadam. so how can one condem sadam and be a hard core baathist? the group that met in istanbul condemned the baathists and they are the resistance are they not? 'i don't know',' most of them' says nothing. yet saying people are like nazis says a lot.
so what i'm hearing from you is there are some people in the resistance who you think are nazilike.
but members of the shiite deathsquads aren't. because they are 'state' sanctioned or carried out by the MOI. that just seems like a contradiction to me because the nazis worked in an 'official' capacity. and this plan cheney is floating sounds pretty nazi like to me. and you will support that no doubt because thus far i have heard yet to hear you reject any action of the occupation or admit it controls anything.
so you are not backing down on your nazi definition yet you have provided very little (virtually none actually) evidence why one secretarian faction creating terror meets your definition and another doesn't.
Maliki announces a new election for Dec '07 and then every two years after for a period of time,
yeah, i notice you don't mention the occupation in your plan. does that mean they aren't part of the picture.or maliki announces what cheney wants. i thought we were waiting around for bush to announce a plan. i suppose you will support bushes plan too. not very creative of you.
Mossad Annie: "when i ask you how many you think are this nazi like entity and you answer 'most of them'
ReplyDelete...
so i want to know if you are speaking of specific militias, a group the size of AQ, the bulk of the resistance or what."
You asked, originally, how many hardcore Baathists I thought were like Nazis, and I answered "Most of them". So, as far as Le Resistance goes, I am saying the hardcore Baathists in le Resistance are like Nazis. I don't know what percentage of le Resistance they are, but they are certainly not the only ones whose tactics I condemn. If you would like to know what percentage of le Resistance whose tacticts I condemn is, the answer is again, "Most of them". Do I condemn anybody on the "gov't" side who targets civilians? Of course.
[SJ Loonie moon]"Luckily Saad and annie don't represent the Iraqis. The Iraqis are diverse and the bulk realize that the violence will only get worse with the USA out in the short term. They don't like relying on the USA but want the USA around long enough until their own security forces can take over."
ReplyDeleteWho r u to decide who i represent or not? On what unproven grounds did u establish this piece of TRASH? Your sick mind? Yes, surely!
Concerning who will decide or not about the stay of your criminal forces in Iraq, it is US IRAQIS who r going to do that. & u lot r going to comply whether u loonie moon or any American similar loonie General would like it or not.
Believe me, u r going to leave easily or with a TREMENDOUSLY big famous KICK in the ass. Understood?
Luckily you represent no one here but YOUR own bloody SELF!
---
Saad
[Loony moonie] said,
ReplyDelete"Saad: a Constitution is a contract organising the relation btw the society/individuals & the State. Not a tool to oppress everybody.
Is this the kind of democracy the Americans promised us in Iraq? "
[Lm],Yes, that's it. An organized relationhip between society/individuals & the State. Freedom, not oppression."
Don't take my words OUT OF CONTEXT you clown!
"Guess what? Al Queda and the insurgency had other ideas, complete with remnants of the old regime, and propped up by those around the world who pray for an American defeat at any cost to Iraq & Iraqis."
Now u pretend sermoning me about the ideas of al-Qaida or the insurgency? U don't know shit about these two. If u know all that then I challenge u to tell me why till now not one Qaida/ resistance member was shown on Iraqi TV?
"Le Resistance can do no wrong, as long as they blow up two or three Americans per day."
Through the American low profile, this criminal resistance have managed to annihilate 665.000 Iraqis as well. So much for the successes of the US in Iraq!!! Pity this useless resistance couldn't double the number to 9-10 Americans a day.
"You want your elected government to erase decades of war, violence, and oppression in only a few months?"
OF COURSE WE WANT THEM TO DO THAT you moron. They have the capacity for that. Why do u think we put them there for? I remind u that Saddam managed to CRUSH an Iraq-wide national rebellion covering 14 of the 18 Iraqi provinces back in March-April 1991 in only....two months! The rebellion was composed of thousands of armed civilians & angry soldiers from the Kuwaiti theater of operations. So don't try to fool me into believing that what Saddam was capable of doing with a completely dented, divided & defeated Army is impossible now with a completely revimped one under American supervision.
"You want the US to make everything swell, or reinstate Saddam, or neuter the mullahs, when one of the worst possible things we could ever do is go after the bad guys in the mosques where they are hiding?"
Don't try to mix the cards. These games r the manners of the weak. R u sending me signals with these that u r losing ground?
"You want us out today, but tomorrow the Saudis would sweep in to support the Sunnis, the Iranians would sweep in to support the Shia, and we would not have the will or the power to stop it."
U r a bad player & a bad loser also. Not a fair-play. These childish games of "tomorrow this..." or "tomorrow that..." r not your field of force.
No one can foresee the future. Surely not u nor your right-wing buddies trying whatever pretext to cling to the prize u gave so dearly to acquir. We r NOT your trophy.
What would happen later in Iraq is our business, not yours. It is OUR country i remind u, not any of your American states. So don't abuse our hospitality. GET OUT WHILE U STILL CAN with your dignity & without causing yourselves any more unpleasant situations. Many Iraqis dislike u for all the betrayals & suffering u caused them in 1991, before & right after with Saddam or because of him. & now they see this from u. So u imagine their feelings.
U r a moquery of success, or a confirmed failure. Not only in failing to stop al-Qaida or the insurgency, but even in preventing your sharks from looting my country's monetary resources through your corrupt companies. & u want me to applause to your eternal presence in Iraq?
I'm not going to repeat what i say. & I consider this as the last time i ever discuss this question with u. The US will LEAVE & that is FINAL. Understood?
---
Saad
Saad: "Don't take my words OUT OF CONTEXT you clown!"
ReplyDeleteSaad, you said the right words, but the context was wrong. I fixed it for you.
Saad: "If u know all that then I challenge u to tell me why till now not one Qaida/ resistance member was shown on Iraqi TV?"
I don't watch Iraqi TV. Are you telling me Zarqawi was never shown on it? Does Iraqi TV carry nothing about "The Islamic State of Iraq's" incitements of war against Shiites?
Saad: "What would happen later in Iraq is our business, not yours."
The dark cynic in me wants to say "fine. Have at it. Enjoy your pointless slaughter." Luckily, that is only a small part and the reasonable part of me wants to see Iraq become stable, safe & prosperous.
Saad: "Saddam managed to CRUSH an Iraq-wide national rebellion covering 14 of the 18 Iraqi provinces back in March-April 1991 in only....two months!"
The US could crush le Resistance with the push of a button, thirty minutes of flight time, and a few bright flashes. It's interesting what can be accomplished when you have no regard for suffering or casualties. Le Resistance has shown no concern whatsoever for the thousands of Iraqi civilians they are grinding to bits on the way to killing two or three Crusaders a day. I can't believe you want to see them actually step it up. Have you no regard for your countrymen?
[RhusLancia]"Saad: "Don't take my words OUT OF CONTEXT you clown!"
ReplyDeleteSaad, you said the right words, but the context was wrong. I fixed it for you."
Who told that i NEEDED your expertise to teach me how to put u back in YOUR place?
"Saad: What would happen later in Iraq is our business, not yours.
The dark cynic in me wants to say "fine. Have at it. Enjoy your pointless slaughter." Luckily, that is only a small part and the reasonable part of me wants to see Iraq become stable, safe & prosperous."
At last u understand the wisedom of listening to the wishes of others. Now the next step is that U LOT to LEEEEEAVE! We want to see your backs. & be assured, whatever happens later, we will NOT call u back for the simple reason it is YOU who r organising the slaughter in Iraq.
Saad: "Saddam managed to CRUSH an Iraq-wide national rebellion covering 14 of the 18 Iraqi provinces back in March-April 1991 in only....two months!"
The US could crush le Resistance with the push of a button, ..."
Oh yes INDEEEEEEEED they would do that. They have been doing it for the last 3 & 1/2 years with a blinding success. So no Zarqawi, no Baathi remanants & even no car-bombs any more nor organised killings or kidnappings. None of that.
People r faring to their daily occupations & the Iraqi MPs r back wrestling freely with the American Ambassador on the preservation in the Iraqi hands of the Iraqi national wealth...
"I can't believe you want to see them actually step it up. Have you no regard for your countrymen?"
Please spare me your false concerns about my countrymen alongwith your GENUINE greedy clinging to my country's wealth.
---
Saad
Hey Saad the Idiot,
ReplyDeleteWhen I make valid points that the US is the only thing keeping the violent forces at bay and all the factors causing the deaths which you have no idea of how to solve even if the US withdrew immediately, your answer was "all this bla bla bla"? You have no intelligence backing your viewpoints. All you have a emotionalism and stupidity. You have no answer of how to make things better if the US leaves. You just want them to leave, and you speak as if Saddam didn't set up the problems that exist now. I guess everything is the fault of the USA. The USA is so powerful and omnipotent that it should have been able to make things better. You couldn't even take care of Saddam yourself, and now you think you're the expert on handling the violence, which is worse than under Saddam in your words, by yourself? Face the ugly fact. The violence occurring right now is mostly homegrown Iraqi made. Just as Katrina revealed the ugly underside of American society, the lifting of the oppression of Saddam did the same for Iraq. Instead of taking charge and moving forward like many countries freed from dictatorship, Iraqis have been found to be inexperienced and unwilling to take charge of their country. Just as they let Saddam stomp all over them, they just as willingly let the extremists do the same. Blame anyone else you want, but in reality, the bulk of the blame for the mess in Iraq goes to the people in the mirror. If Iraqis are like you, I have no problem is having the US withdraw right now and watch you deteriorate like Rwanda, Haiti and so many other places whose people are too stupid to make their country succeed.
[Loony Song moonie]"Hey Saad the Idiot,"
ReplyDeleteI'm Saad the Iraqi who knows more about his country than any loony idiots like YOURSELF who pretend knowing more than the country-dwellers like myself.
Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!
"When I make valid points that the US is the only thing keeping the violent forces at bay...."
No No No excuse me to interrupt your RUBBISH here. Your US is FAR from keeping violent forces at bay. It is in fact UNLEASHING them. This is the sad fact. & if u don't want to see that. Then it is your fault not mine. U r the blind one here!
And YES! I want u LOT to leave now before tomorrow. & if u don't understand my English, then i won't repeat u that in Arabic neither, you idiot!
"You have no intelligence backing your viewpoints All you have a emotionalism and stupidity."
But U have the intelligence to cling to my country at whatever cost whether we Iraqis like or not is that it? Do u know this insect that sticks to a man's body & sucks its blood? I don't know its name but u surely understand what i mean.
"You have no answer of how to make things better if the US leaves."
& why should u know better than me?
R u Iraqi?
You just want them to leave, and you speak as if Saddam didn't set up the problems that exist now. I guess everything is the fault of the USA."
Maybe it is not your fault. Still we Iraqis dislike your presence in our country & we want u to LEAVE! GET OUT! DEHORS! DU VENT! BARRA! ERUIT! MOT-Il KiRAFKOM!
"That is why we The USA is so powerful and omnipotent that it should have been able to make things better. You couldn't even take care of Saddam yourself, and now you think you're the expert on handling the violence, which is worse than under Saddam in your words, by yourself? Face the ugly fact. The violence occurring right now is mostly homegrown Iraqi made. Just as Katrina revealed the ugly underside of American society, the lifting of the oppression of Saddam did the same for Iraq. Instead of taking charge and moving forward like many countries freed from dictatorship, Iraqis have been found to be inexperienced and unwilling to take charge of their country. Just as they let Saddam stomp all over them, they just as willingly let the extremists do the same. Blame anyone else you want, but in reality, the bulk of the blame for the mess in Iraq goes to the people in the mirror. If Iraqis are like you, I have no problem is having the US withdraw right now and watch you deteriorate like Rwanda, Haiti and so many other places whose people are too stupid to make their country succeed"
Bla bla bla bla bla bla.....etc.
Your ulcered point made? Ok, now GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!
---
Saad
You asked, originally, how many hardcore Baathists I thought were like Nazis, and I answered "Most of them".
ReplyDeleteno, you are being as evasive and distorting as you were origianlly. this is totally untrue. here is the original question copied and pasted from your own post..(bold added)
Annie: "exactly how many hard core baathists exist that carried out the kind of atrocitites that nazi's did."
Hardcore Baathists? Most of them!
this is a straight up question i ask you that you could have originally answered "i really don't know". instead you chose to answer in such a way as to evade and distort my question, providing you a platform to continue your Iraq-Germany analogy that took up the better part of a very very long thread.
as bruno debunked you previously as then you continued w/your flawed association to the motivation of "Werewolves" which was merely an anticipated resistance and was thoroughly bebunked by numerous quotes.
well, i am glad you decided once and for all, possibly here because it is in a different blog, to finally state what i suspected all along, that this threat of a nazi like force that was in fact NOT a resistance but a state like systematic imposition that you claim resembles current present day resistant tactics is a force of which the quantity you have no idea.
Me: "The US could crush le Resistance with the push of a button, ..."
ReplyDeleteSaad: "Oh yes INDEEEEEEEED they would do that. "
No we wouldn't do that, and thank God. Instead we're down in your streets and training your army, facing down your thugs (until your gov't tells us to stand down), waiting for your politicians to do what they need to to secure your country.
Mossad Annie: "well, i am glad you decided once and for all, possibly here because it is in a different blog"
ReplyDeleteMy answer is the same here as it is there. You dragged the topic over here, by the way. I can only answer the question you ask, not what you think you ask or mean to ask. Even the oft-pasted question "exactly how many hard core baathists exist that carried out the kind of atrocitites that nazi's did." Is properly answered "Most of them"! As in, most hardcore Baathists carried out the kind of attrocities that the Nazi's did. The part you bold- how many are there- is a separate question. When you clarrified that, I answered it straight away: I don't know how many there are.
I can't be responsible for how many posts it takes you to clarify your question!
Having vented on Saad the Idiot, I am glad to say that most Iraqis are not like him. Unlike over 90% of Americans, I actually listen to as many Iraqis as I can regardless of their stance on the war and don't rely on headline news as my bible. I can say confidently that Iraq will become better over time because its people, although under the cloud of terror, have the will and ability to feel their way towards a functioning democracy. Just as any US person doesn't like having military forces control where they live and work, so don't Iraqis, especially foreign ones. The military is a blunt instrument that disrupts as well as help and just like in any large group of people, there are a few who give the rest a bad name. However, the good will of the bulk of the US soldiers and civilians in Iraq are known to those Iraqis who interact with them directly and more good than harm is coming from the interaction. As Iraqis themselves take over the policing and harder security work, the US military can gradually remove itself from the daily lives of Iraqis and the Iraqis themselves will be able to deal better with the significant criminal elements that compound the sectarian violence but is below the US military's purview. This isn't going to happen smoothly. The political solution on top of all the violence is going to take iterations of elections to reach, and there is most likely going to be abuse of power and readjustment of the constitution as Iraq goes through the growing pains of a new democracy. However, the price of blood to form this new Iraq is being paid by Americans along with those of Iraqis. Unlike past acts of America to bomb from afar, Americans are here in Iraq to do more than superficial and remote actions because it is in both our countries' interest for Iraq to succeed.
ReplyDeleteRhusLancia
ReplyDeleteOk, we are staying away from insults so far
We have 2 completly opposite opinions
I laid off for a day responding to you, because i could not believe what I had read
USA only responsible for 4000 death?
No bloody way on planet earth
I notice you, moony, Saad and Annie are really getting into complicated debates, almost arguments
Me ...I'm an entrepreneur and look at the big chunks of this Jigsaw
I've told this story before, but its all relevant to how the world has developed and Iraq got into this mess....
Please pass your opinion on the below
1979/ 1980 Iranian Hostage Sieges in London and Tehran
America very pissed off
This period Saddam was an Allie, a pal of the West
1979-1988 Russia's invasion of Afghanistan
The Teliban armed by the West, and trained in the UK and USA
1980- 1988 Iraq now are at war with Iran - and arms are supplied by the West to Iraq
With some of these weapons, which were weapons of mass destruction, the Kurds got it
Now the above shows how in this period the fuse was lit... and by the USA and the UK
The years are accurate, and somewhat spooky how they overlap, do you not think
Hopefully you agree so far
Its difficult not to
Ok, things progressed a bit
Aug 2nd 1990 - Iraq now invades Kuwait
I know the date as I was there on the 9th of August
I thought Saddam was a right evil b@stard invading those poor innocent Kuwaitis
Since, I've educated myself a bit more, and understand the politics of that decision, and how it was all to do with the unfair proportion of the Basra Oil fields that Kuwait were getting
This is where things started to go really pear shaped, and what had gone on before was criminal by our pals in the USA
When the air war started it was unfair, no war has ever been so one sided, for the first time in history we saw how in this modern era a nation can be destroyed with pin point precision from 3 miles up (and even from the sea)
Our Tanks fired at a range of 3 miles, in comparison the Iraqi tanks fired at 1km, it was disgusting when you consider it. Not that war is fair, its not
It was pea shooters against cannons
In 1991, I saw the carnage on the Basra Road, I had never seen so many dead bodies. I saw British troops taking war trophies, I saw British troops playing football with an Iraqis head, I saw a British troop stealing a dead Iraqis wedding ring
I saw with my own eyes, myself taking 15 and 16 year old Iraqis as POW's. The republican guard were no where near the front line
I saw that these kids had 2nd world war british gas masks
I saw that these kids had british second world war medical kits (I brought 1 back and is in my loft)
I saw that these kids had british green hard helmets from the 2nd world war
War is very very dirty, evil...
I had seen Saddams army fire scuds at us, not one tipped with Anthrax, Plague or any other Biological or Chemical agent
Saddam never had WMD, thats what I realised, because had he got any, he would have fired a big scud tipped with Anthrax at Israel and stood back and watched the fun begin
His back was so up against the wall, had he had a chemical capacity, he would have used it, simple as that
So based on that small fact, I realised Saddam never had any left
Now thanks to my wonderful government, they injected me with all sorts of unlicensed drugs, including Anthrax, Plague and another 5 nasties, and was daily taking NAPS tablets daily - for Nerve agent
This gave me Gulf War Syndrome
I am now registered 19.5% disabled because of it
In March 91 as soon as it started it ended, we liberated Kuwait, and felt like war hero's- over the years, I felt like I had been involved in a mass murder exercise than be a national hero
Now this is where the tide turned
The Iraqis were once our friends, now we didn't like them
When based in Saudi, I couldn't help but notice how much we were arming Saudi Arabia, with soopa doopa jets etc
The next 10 years was a lot of behind doors stuff
2001 - It all came back onto the TV screens 9/11 - occurred
This is when the world were told about a chap called Osama Bin Laden, until then he wasn't really well known
The war on terrorism had begun
2002 - Elite troops went to Afghanistan to try and find these Al Qaeda cells - These were the same cells that were armed by the USA in the 80's to fight the Russians, so for the second time in the recent past, we were fighting against Arms we provided
2002 - Weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq, they found nothing
over the next few months after several visits and nothing found, the Iraqis told the Weapons inspectors to - GET LOST - We have no WMD
2002/ 2003
Back to the bully boy tactics, my dads bigger than your dad etc, off we go again
Bombing 3 piles of shit out of Iraq from 3 miles up and the killing of innocent civilians began
Having destroyed the countries infrastructure in 90/ 91, the Iraqis had now got back on a good footing, no massive killings taking place by Saddam, and Iraq not at war with anyone, infact, dare I say it (and Saad, 24 and Treasure can confirm this)the country was now as good as it had been in decades?
So as I said, innocent civilians had been killed, because Iraq was rightly claiming they had no WMD, and for some reason, the West thought it had a right to bully anyone they liked
Forget diplomacy, we'll bloody invade these nasty Arabs...
The 2003 invasion of Iraq, codenamed "Operation Iraqi Freedom" by the United States, officially began on March 20, 2003. The stated objective of the invasion was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people".
A large chunk of your Americans thought that Saddam was responsible for 9/11
And these people were delighted that an eye for a eye was being got
Already by killing innocent civilians Iraqis had a small army of killers, insurgents - If you came to Scotland and killed a member of my family for no reason at all, I'd be making sure I'd shoot anything that was party to the event
The snowball was now well and truly down the hill, the point of no return achieved and after several months....
Uhm....
oops !
Guess what guys, they don't have WMD !!
Oh fook
Bit of a clanger, but we'll spin our propaganda machine and say Saddam is a terrible fella
We'll ladies, gents, boys and girls, the horse has bolted
As soon as no weapons of mass destruction were found, George Bush has just committed the biggest war crime in history
Before the invasion, Iraqis were happy, they knew to keep their mouths shut, and they would have a fruitful life, which is no different than dozens of other countries who DO have WMD
By destroying the infrastructure, the American led invasion has now resulted in gang warfare as the country crumbled - and subsequently into civil war
This mess is down to us in the west
I apologise to every Iraqi on planet Earth for my countries involvement in this murderous event
And on a final note
Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi
Off the top of my head I believe 19 of the 21 9/11 guys were Saudis
And for the record please watch Farenheight 9/11 to learn more about Saudi and American politics and friendship
Also .. Saudi does have WMD, Cos I seen the bloody things with my own eyes, and they also do have a few questionable human rights issues
Lets not even start about the Teliban, that will be in the next chapter of this wee true story I am telling, maybe in 5-10 years when things become a little bit clearer
Now RhusLancia, without going into too much gobbildy gook, and trying to paint some blurred picture about how the Iraqis should be eternally grateful for this War Crime, tell me what part of the above is untrue
I could go into far far more detail, but these are the facts, the outside pieces of the jigsaw, not the wishy washy middle bits you are having problems with
And as for your 4000 estimates of innocent civilian deaths 0 I put it closer to half a million, don't ask me to break it down, because I will
Kind regards
Steve
Steve, i don't have time to pick apart your history in detail. If you want me to I'll get to it later. it is substantially true, but of course there are significant ommissions and factual errors. For example, our support for Saddam in the 80s was against Iran, who we felt was a greater threat at the time (embassy kidnappings etc). Our support started with removing Saddam from our State Sponsors of Terrorism list (prematurely) in '82. This lifted restrictions on what we could sell him. Isn't that interesting? But anyway, we ended up providing him with less than 1% of his military equipment. We were something like #12 on the list of his suppliers, far far behind Russia, China, France, and others.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, yes we crushed his fourth largest army in the world in just a few days in one of the most lopsided military vicories ever. But instead of removing Saddam then, we began over a decade of sanctions, cease-fires, and diplomatic "containment" that succeeded in removing his WMDs (looking back) but were miserable in almost every other regard. Saddam played games all throughout this time, witholding food and medicine from his people, playing corruption games, violating the cease-fire agreement, and on and on. Come 2003, we didn't know what he had, but he was a threat and his time was up. I hoped he would take the last minute exile deal, but he didn't and we invaded. Carry on for a while along those lines, and we are in the present day.
I'm sorry you witnessed horrible things during your service. I'm reading a personal account of WWII right now, and there's no whitewashing what a grim task war is. It is clear that history will wash away the blood and details of war, but those who fight can never forget.
The 4,000 number came from the article I cited. It covers the initial invasion period and is in addition to an estimated 8,000 combatant deaths.
Hi RhusLancia
ReplyDeleteI have no idea how to respond apart from a really long detailed account
'''we didn't know what he had, but he was a threat and his time was up. I hoped he would take the last minute exile deal'''
As history and facts show, he wasn't a threat to anyone outside Iraq
Lets look at a few countries who are a threat
Iran ?
North Korea?
China?
Russia?
Israel?
Why did we choose to bully Iraq?
Why not choose one of the other 78 or so dictators on planet Earth ?
Some who do have WMD ?
Africa has some leaders far more severe than Saddam at the way they treat their own
I'm sorry, but I'll leave this debate by strongly disagree with you
This invasion was the ideal chance for the USA to have an airport in the middle of the Oil heartlands
As for your quote, it was in reply to my quote of
'' George Bush is responsible for far more innocent civilian deaths that George Bush ever was''
You have, for whatever reason decided to play on words and narrow it down into a small window of time
Every day an innocent civilian is murdered, kidnapped, blown up, blown or whatever.... The blood is on George Bushes hands
That equates to over 100 deaths a day since the war began
now if you say the war has been going for 1300 days simple maths show that without looking too hard you can account for 150,000 deaths, and as we both know, the meadia and intelligence (or lack of) is nothing short of propa ganda nonsence
I'd rather believe Saad, 24, Treasure, Riverbend, Raed, Marshmellow and the ying yangs of intelligent Iraqi 'new media' bloggers out there
Without the account they give would make your fairytale believable
As for being sorry for me seeing stuff during 'desert storm' - please don't be, i signed on the dotted line, and knew what I was doing, I did 2 tours of Northern Ireland and served in the Falkland Islands
I fortunatly took time out last year by helping victims of natural disasters (Tsunami)- just to get away from nonsence BS Media, and stupid opinions, and I question why our leaders, who be better off apearing on the muppet show, are trying to be responsible for ruining this thing we all live on, and nobody owns, commonly known as planet Earth - we owe it to our children to make a better place, and as far as I can tell, between us, we don't really seem to be doing a right good job
Of that I'm sure we both agree, hate breeds hate, and the day this illegal war started, our democratic leaders created a disaster not created by mother nature
Kind regards
Steve
Steve: "Why did we choose to bully Iraq?
ReplyDeleteWhy not choose one of the other 78 or so dictators on planet Earth ?
Some who do have WMD ?"
The world community, led by the US, tried to contain Saddam in the 90s after deciding not to remove him in '91. From our standpoint it didn't work- we had legislation as early as '98 seeking "regime change" in Iraq. Only Saddam knew for sure about his WMD. OK, Saddam knew... and all the "told ya so" people who also said we were going to steal Iraq's oil in '91. But the UN didn't know. France didn't know. Saddam's generals didn't know. We didn't know. Saddam's time was up, and we invaded. Maybe after a decade of failed diplomacy we'll invade North Korea and find out that their nuclear baby was stillborn. Who knows. But Saddam's time was long overdue, WMD or not.
Steve: '' George Bush is responsible for far more innocent civilian deaths that George Bush ever was''
You have, for whatever reason decided to play on words and narrow it down into a small window of time
No, I narrowed it down because Bush's invasion clearly accounted for the civilian deaths that occured during it. When he declared major combat operations were over in May '03, major combat operations were over. If an insurgent/terrorist chooses to blow up a group of day laborers or a vegetable stand, I blame the insurgent/terrorist and those who recruited, facilitated, and supported him. Do you blame the Kurds' prosperity in the North on Bush, or do you think their own actions had anything to do with it? They chose stability and prosperity in the wake of the invasion, the insurgents chose continued and escalating death and destruction.
I thought of a more succinct response to your history above. It goes like this: throughout the 80s and 90s, the US backed those who supported our own interests to the extent that they furthered our aims. When Saddam was against the iranians, we supported him. As he seemed to get the upper hand on Iran, we supported them (Iran-Contra). When he invaded Kuwait, we supported Kuwait. When Afghanistan fought the USSR, we supported Afghanistan. As soon as our aims were met, we completely disengaged. We left Saddam in power to squash the rebellion (that Bush 41 invited), we left a vacuum in Afghanistan for the Taleban/Al Queda to fill, and so on. I'm not defending these policies! I think they were disasters.
I see a difference in our current policy in Iraq, in that we are taking responsibility to see it through. OK, we are trying to take responsibility to see it through. I have no doubt that a stable, democratic Iraq is in our interest as well as the Iraqis. I worry that our resolve is wavering, and the insurgency, ever ready to capitalize on naive notions of the "nobility" of their cause and an amazing willingness to hold them accountable for nothing, will fill the vacuum left by our lost interest in Iraq. With disasterous results for all!
Steve: "we owe it to our children to make a better place, and as far as I can tell, between us, we don't really seem to be doing a right good job
Of that I'm sure we both agree, hate breeds hate"
Yes I agree up to there!
Some fools in this comment section have just pretended that other Iraqis r not like me "fortunately." Well I wonder what these "different" Iraqis would think of the American forces in Iraq when they will read the details of this latest (& funniest to death) American scandal in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteToday from the Associated Press, (i deleted the irrelevant parts to the main story)
"Ex-Iraqi minister escapes prison
Security company helps dual Iraq-U.S. citizen flee; 2 more U.S. forces die
The Associated Press
Updated: 4:55 p.m. ET Dec. 18, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The former electricity minister — a dual U.S.-Iraqi citizen who was jailed for corruption — escaped police custody with the help of security agents he once hired to protect him, an anti-corruption official said Monday.
At least 2,947 members of the U.S. military have died since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, according to an Associated Press count.
Former Electricity Minister Ayham al-Samaraie broke out of a Baghdad detention facility Sunday with the help of a group of private security experts, said Faris Kareem, deputy head of Iraq’s Public Integrity Commission, an anti-corruption panel. It was al-Samaraie’s second escape since he was convicted in October.
Kareem said the security agents were “foreign,” but he had no further details.
Lou Fintor, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, said U.S. officials were aware of reports of al-Samaraie’s escape and had been in touch with him in prison to provide basic consular services.
A Sunni Arab political figure, al-Samaraie was a member of the transitional government set up after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion and led by former Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.
He was convicted on one of 13 charges of corruption against him and still faces trial on the other 12 counts. The charges all concern an estimated $2 billion in funds for contracts on rebuilding the country’s electrical infrastructure that went missing.
May have contacts with insurgents
Al-Samaraie is also believed to have had contacts with Sunni Arab insurgents and has tried to persuade them to put down their weapons and join the political process.
After his first escape, a few days after his conviction, Iraqi officials caught him at the Baghdad airport with a Chinese passport, Kareem said.
On Dec. 9, a nephew of Saddam Hussein who was serving a life sentence for bomb-making escaped from prison in northern Iraq.
Ayman Sabawi, the son of Saddam’s half brother Sabawi Ibrahim Hassan al-Tikriti, fled the prison some 45 miles west of Mosul with the help of a police officer, according to local police Brig. Abdul Karim al-Jubouri.
Arrest warrants have been issued for about 90 former officials, including 15 ministers, on charges of corruption, according to the independent commission. Al-Samaraie is the only official to have been convicted and imprisoned on such charges."
PS: I remind everybody that the first escape attempt mentioned above was also with the help of an American military unit! They snatched the crook from the Court room (!!!, do u hear that Steve C., would that ever happen in the UK?), & tried to smuggle him outside Iraq through the other crook's (meaning Khalil Zadeh's) Embassy. Of course not one foreign media has reported that at the time. This was ywo month ago last October.)
Maybe i should say it louder & clearer:
WE, UNGRATEFUL IRAQIS, THANK THE US FORCES FOR HAVING PROVIDED US WITH THE SORT OF CORRUPT SECURITY FORCES WE SEE AT WORK NOW IN IRAQ. WHETHER IN TRYING HALF-HEARTEDLY TO STOP THE DAILY EXPLOSIONS, BUT INDULGING IN FACT WITH DAILY KIDNAPPINGS (while the US forces r not far watching), OR IN HELPING CONVICTS RUN AWAY FROM PRISON!
Here r we satisfied now?
Of course not to mention the latest crime in al-Ishaqi region North of Baghdad. The American forces have immunity of legal persecution signed with the Iraqi puppet Govts. Meaning whatever they do, they r not liable to the Iraqi laws!!!
But of course the fools of this section will not even bother to wonder about it or even google for it.
Now r u going to leave my country peacefully or r u going to oblige us to KICK U VERY HARD IN YOUR ASSES?
---
Saad
Saad explaining somewhat calmly about wanting rid of the illegal occupants of his country reveals astonishingly.....
ReplyDelete'''PS: I remind everybody that the first escape attempt mentioned above was also with the help of an American military unit! They snatched the crook from the Court room (!!!, do u hear that Steve C., would that ever happen in the UK?)'''
I would certainally hope not Saad my friend, however they do tell me OJ Simpson is innocent !
The big question being, is Michael Jackson guilty of blowing bubbles too ????
The mind boggles
Kind regards
Steve
South Korea, in many significant ways, parallels the struggles that Iraq is going through. The USA occupied and continued to occupy Soth Korea. The USA made major mistakes there (look up the Bridge at No Gun Ri for the most famous one) and Pablo Picasso even made a painting portraying US soldiers killing Korean civilians. There are also even more recent fiascos where school girls were run over by US military vehicles. The USA attempted to set up democracy which failed at first, second, etc. The South Korean government itself killed about 100,000 civilians after the Korean War (using the security forces trained by the USA). South Korea had its share of insurgents who actually started their killing in 1948 - two years before the Korean War and numbered up to 35,000 by 1950 not to mention the 30,000 North Korean soldiers left behind in retreat of MacArthur's landing at Inchon who became guerillas. There are some popular South Korean soap operas about the communist insurgents in South Korea. Iraq looks virtually untouched compared to what South Korea looked after the Korean War. But over time, South Korea eventually got a real democracy and it has become one of the geopolitical powerhouses of the world. Iraq has the potential to surpass South Korea with its oil resources and far greater land area. It just takes time, and it relies on the Iraqi people.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16241340/site/newsweek/page/2/
ReplyDelete'Blood and Money
In what might be called the mother of all surprises, Iraq's economy is growing strong, even booming in places.
By Silvia Spring
Newsweek International
Dec. 25, 2006 - Jan. 1, 2007 issue - It may sound unreal, given the daily images of carnage and chaos. But for a certain plucky breed of businessmen, there's good money to be made in Iraq. Consider Iraqna, the leading mobile-phone company. For sure, its quarterly reports seldom make for dull reading. Despite employees kidnapped, cell-phone towers bombed, storefronts shot up and a huge security budget—up to four guards for each employee—the company posted revenues of $333 million in 2005. This year, it's on track to take in $520 million. The U.S. State Department reports that there are now 7.1 million mobile-phone subscribers in Iraq, up from just 1.4 million two years ago. Says Wael Ziada, an analyst in Cairo who tracks Iraqna: "There will always be pockets of money and wealth, no matter how bad the situation gets."
Civil war or not, Iraq has an economy, and—mother of all surprises—it's doing remarkably well. Real estate is booming. Construction, retail and wholesale trade sectors are healthy, too, according to a report by Global Insight in London. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce reports 34,000 registered companies in Iraq, up from 8,000 three years ago. Sales of secondhand cars, televisions and mobile phones have all risen sharply. Estimates vary, but one from Global Insight puts GDP growth at 17 percent last year and projects 13 percent for 2006. The World Bank has it lower: at 4 percent this year. But, given all the attention paid to deteriorating security, the startling fact is that Iraq is growing at all.
How? Iraq is a crippled nation growing on the financial equivalent of steroids, with money pouring in from abroad. National oil revenues and foreign grants look set to total $41 billion this year, according to the IMF. With security improving in one key spot—the southern oilfields—that figure could go up.
Not too shabby, all things considered. Yes, Iraq's problems are daunting, to say the least. Unemployment runs between 30 and 50 percent. Many former state industries have all but ceased to function. As for all that money flowing in, much of it has gone to things that do little to advance the country's future. Security, for instance, gobbles up as much as a third of most companies' operating budgets, whereas what Iraq really needs are hospitals, highways and power-generating plants.
Even so, there's a vibrancy at the grass roots that is invisible in most international coverage of Iraq. Partly it's the trickle-down effect. However it's spent, whether on security or something else, money circulates. Nor are ordinary Iraqis themselves short on cash. After so many years of living under sanctions, with little to consume, many built up considerable nest eggs—which they are now spending. That's boosted economic activity, particularly in retail. Imported goods have grown increasingly affordable, thanks to the elimination of tariffs and trade barriers. Salaries have gone up more than 100 percent since the fall of Saddam, and income-tax cuts (from 45 percent to just 15 percent) have put more cash in Iraqi pockets. "The U.S. wanted to create the conditions in which small-scale private enterprise could blossom," says Jan Randolph, head of sovereign risk at Global Insight. "In a sense, they've succeeded."
Consider some less formal indicators. Perhaps the most pervasive is the horrendous Iraqi traffic jams. Roadside bombs account for fewer backups than the sheer number of secondhand cars that have crowded onto the nation's roads—five times as many in Baghdad as before the war. Cheap Chinese goods overflow from shop shelves, and store owners report quick turnover. Real-estate prices have risen several hundred percent, suggesting that Iraqis are more optimistic about the future than most Americans are.
There's even a positive spin to be put on corruption. Money stolen from government coffers or siphoned from U.S. aid projects does not just disappear. Again, says Farid Abolfathi, a Global Insight analyst, it's the "trickledown" effect. Such "underground activity" is the most dynamic part of Iraq's economy, he says. "It might not be viewed as respectable. But in reality, that's what puts money in the hands of the little people."
Meanwhile, Iraq's official economic institutions are making progress, improbable as that might sound in the context of savage sectarian violence and a seemingly complete breakdown of leadership and law. Yet it's a fact. A government often accused of being no government at all has somehow managed to take its first steps to liberalize the highly centralized economy of the Saddam era. Iraq has a debt-relief deal with the IMF that requires Baghdad to end subsidies and open up its gas-import market. Earlier this year the government made the first hesitant steps, axing fuel subsidies—and sending prices from a few cents a liter to around 14. "This has become one important way of institutionally engaging with Iraq," says economist Colin Rowat at the University of Birmingham. "If you lose that engagement, then that means a lot more people have given up on Iraq."
It goes without saying: real progress won't be seen until the security situation clears up. Iraq still lacks a functioning banking system. Though there's an increasing awareness of Iraq as a potential emerging market, foreign investors won't make serious commitments until they are assured a measure of stability. Local moneymen are scarcely more bullish on the long term. In Iraq's nascent bond market, buyers have so far been willing to invest in local-currency Treasury bills with terms up to six months, max.
Iraqna isn't the only success story. There is also Nipal, a money-transfer service that is the backbone of Iraq's cash economy, as well as a slew of successful construction firms in Kurdistan. Such companies are not waiting for Iraq's political crisis to resolve itself. Yet imagine how they would prosper if it did, and how quickly they would be joined by others. As things stand, Iraqna faces extraordinary difficulties. It builds towers but lives in constant fear that they will be blown up. It has to be careful about whom it hires, or where it assigns people to work. Whether Sunni or Shia, it doesn't matter; criminal gangs and militias regularly try to kidnap employees to hold them hostage for ransom, regardless of ethnicity. As for long-range planning? Forget it, says Ziada, the Cairo analyst. "It's a terrible situation for any company."
But again, that's the remarkable thing. In a business climate that is inhospitable, to say the least, companies like Iraqna are thriving. The withdrawal of a certain great power could drastically reduce the foreign money flow, and knock the crippled economy flat.
With Michael Hastings in Baghdad
© 2006 Newsweek, Inc.
Interesting article, SJM. I hope Silvia Spring can find a new job soon.
ReplyDeletewhoo - hoo ! I thought the political blogs I've been roaming around were contentious : TB is hosting a lively lot.
ReplyDeleteI'm stunned the U.S. decided to try and run Iraq on the cheap against all advice. The results were predicted, so must have been thought acceptable ( well, by Rummy plus the "in" crowd at the White House ).
That and the constant lying and threats are a good start for fascism labels to be flying around. Some time ago I started calling the U.S. the Fourth Reich. The President has so much power to do what he wants the place gives banana republics a bad name.
And Iraq ? It was always a bad plan poorly done. The current job of American troops in Iraq is to provide target practice. Outnumbered hundreds to one, to talk of them controlling Iraq is past the pont of a bad joke. Despite that, I agree things will get worse rapidly when they leave. I just don't think delay will do anything except make everyone madder.
Poor Saad good old Saddamite
ReplyDeleteCompletely ignoring the voices
of 12 million Shia and 5 million Kurds how Saad and somehow
Annie speak for all of Iraqi
is beyond me ... even our Host BT
I mean cmon do you really believe
your opinions are the same as the
Iraqi in Hilla/kut/Karbal/Irbil ???
really do you think so ???
You write from a pespective of
a Baghdadi whose family knew how to
live normally under Saddam
certainly your opinions differ
from M al Sadr and his minions!!!
Thats why Iraq
is in this situation now ...
Saddam ignored the well being
of way way too many people.
The Shia masses may hate the Americans .... but they hate
Saddam much more this is clear.
If you leave out the essentially
independent Kurdish region
The Shia outnumber the non-Kurdish
Sunni by at least 2-1.
They will dominate an ever improving army and air-force
slowly but surely The new Iraqi
government will be in control.
Your insistance at US Troops
withdraw immediately is because
you feel your Baathist goons
can win a civil war against the
Shia masses without US Forces
present ... but this feeling
will soon erode as The New Iraqi
Government grows stronger ...
The fact is US Forces
are dying everyday so that
the Iraqi can reconcile first
before a huge conflict exists
thereby saving many many Iraqi lives ... perhaps even the lives
of your loved ones ...
this notion
that right now in Baghdad the
conditions are as Bad as possible
is insane ... even you admit that
the US Forces "have not seen a real
insurgency yet" ...
But if they do ... all it means is
going back to air strikes ...
and after the air strikes the typical Saddamite family crying
about innocents killed after
a drone videotapes militants entering their house.
So be careful what you wish for ...
even Jack Murtha who wants US Forces out of Iraq wants the air power to remain nearby to obliterate targets if need be
Memo to Bruno ....
If Saddams biggest crime was being a brutal dictator and not simply
being a dictator or knew enough to
1) let his people breath
2) Share the natural wealth
Saddam had many years to moderate inside his country
and to reconcile with the
Western world ...
The sam goes for Kim-Jong-Il ...
North Korea and South Korea still
do NOT have a permanent peace
traety signed ... he should
work on that first ... then work
on reconcilliation with all the neighboring countries and then
he can work with the US on trade agreements ... similar
what Saddam could have done
1) reconcile with the internal factions
2) reconcile with Iraqs neighbors
3) cut trade deals with western world
That is Saddams biggest crime
wasting his power by being
brutal instead of using it
for some good
Funny when the western media
ReplyDeletepublishes strories about
Abu-Grhaib during the
"torture" of six Iraqi
no one complains about them
But in the past before the invasion
we now here complaints about western media misrepresenting
the conditions in Iraq ...
fascinating how the media
were liers in the past and now
they are truthful ???
[Anonymous]"Poor Saad good old Saddamite
ReplyDeleteCompletely ignoring the voices
of 12 million Shia and 5 million Kurds how Saad and somehow
Annie speak for all of Iraqi
is beyond me ... even our Host BT
I mean cmon do you really believe
your opinions are the same as the
Iraqi in Hilla/kut/Karbal/Irbil ???
really do you think so ???"
Dont u ever try to stick words or opinions or labels to me. And first show a bit of courage & write under your REAL name u coward. So for u demandig the departure of foreign occupation forces is a CRIME? & u call me a Saddamist? FYI, I wasn't happy with Saddam nor the %100 of Iraqis. But who can open his mouth? & the 12 mln of Shia + 5 of Kurds + all the other Iraqis that u forgot to mention u sectarian clown demand all the departure of the foreign occupation forces. Or do u really think people will follow your rubbish u spilled here?
Let me give u a lesson on how to look for opinions of Iraqis: First u ask people around u or your parents, then if this is not enough, u go look in the websites. If u r a real Iraqi u see what Iraqis think. & i hope u have enough brains to understand. Not a damagh-SIZ! Right?
And since u pretend to know better than all of us about the Iraqis in Hilla/kut/Karbal/Irbil ???, then why didn't u write it instead of pretending void ideas u empty headed moron? Or u think that convincing people goes through the same Saddamit manners of the past u ignorant?
Next time u write with your REAL name or refrain. & try to write something consistent. Not that long aimless bla bla blaaaaaa, bla bla blaaaaaa of yours.
Understood?
---
Saad
Have you seen the new India search engine www.ByIndia.com they added all the cool features of popular products like MySpace, YouTube, Ebay, Craigslist, etc. all for free to use and specifically for India. Anyone else try this yet?
ReplyDeleteByIndia.com First to Blend Search, Social Network, Video Sharing and Auctions Into One Seamless Product for Indian Internet Users.