When I first watched the Killing Fields last year, I thought to myself if that is going to be our country’s fate. I wasn’t completely pessimistic as I am today but I had my fears.
It is unbelievable how things look exactly the same today. Several scenes in the movie horrified me. One of them was of the young and armed Khmer Rouge taking over the city. But there was a horrible scene which I hoped not to happen in my country. It was about the Khmer Rouge closing schools, forcing people to be illiterate, and killing whoever carries a book or a notebook. The scene starts with the fighters gathering children in new schools they formed. They taught them how to leave education and how to be separated from their families.
Here we are today. EIGHTY policemen, militias or whatever they are named broke into the Higher Education ministry in Baghdad abducting ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY people in 10 minutes.
It is unbelievable how things look exactly the same today. Several scenes in the movie horrified me. One of them was of the young and armed Khmer Rouge taking over the city. But there was a horrible scene which I hoped not to happen in my country. It was about the Khmer Rouge closing schools, forcing people to be illiterate, and killing whoever carries a book or a notebook. The scene starts with the fighters gathering children in new schools they formed. They taught them how to leave education and how to be separated from their families.
Here we are today. EIGHTY policemen, militias or whatever they are named broke into the Higher Education ministry in Baghdad abducting ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY people in 10 minutes.
The new Iraqi Killing Fields started killing education in Iraq.
I am completely shocked. I lost hope forever now. It is now officially the Killing Fields. It is exactly the same thing when the Khmer Rouge killed and destroyed schools and every aspect of education. I feel so miserable and unable to think. It is unbelievable how this country is dying. Education was one of very good things in Iraq. Students from other countries came to study there despite the sanctions that were imposed by the f****en UN. These thugs don't want this. They need to impose their own fanatic teachings.
These crimes aim at killing the ambition of young Iraqis who want to study abroad as well. The gunmen kidnapped employees of Scholarships and Cultural Relations Directorate. The institute is responsible for granting scholarships to Iraqi professors and students wishing to study abroad. It is a plan to kill the hope and ambition of being educated in the heart of every Iraqi.
I am so mad at the Iraqi government. I think the Prime Minister and his interior minister should resign immediately. This was an organized crime in an area where police and army are always present. I have been in that area hundreds of times before as it was near the place where I worked.
I am so desperate. I don’t know what would happen in the coming days. Everything positive has gone. Democracy and freedom killed every positive seed of hope inside our hearts. I hate Bush, I hate Blair, I hate all the American administration. They destroyed my country. They let thugs and thieves rule it.
You American and British people are also to blame for this mess. It is your silence and your support to these two criminals who once supported Saddam. Wake up and move from your chairs and sofas. Do something. Help my country which your countries destroyed. Try to do something before it is too late, if it is not too late.
Alas !!!!
I am completely shocked. I lost hope forever now. It is now officially the Killing Fields. It is exactly the same thing when the Khmer Rouge killed and destroyed schools and every aspect of education. I feel so miserable and unable to think. It is unbelievable how this country is dying. Education was one of very good things in Iraq. Students from other countries came to study there despite the sanctions that were imposed by the f****en UN. These thugs don't want this. They need to impose their own fanatic teachings.
These crimes aim at killing the ambition of young Iraqis who want to study abroad as well. The gunmen kidnapped employees of Scholarships and Cultural Relations Directorate. The institute is responsible for granting scholarships to Iraqi professors and students wishing to study abroad. It is a plan to kill the hope and ambition of being educated in the heart of every Iraqi.
I am so mad at the Iraqi government. I think the Prime Minister and his interior minister should resign immediately. This was an organized crime in an area where police and army are always present. I have been in that area hundreds of times before as it was near the place where I worked.
I am so desperate. I don’t know what would happen in the coming days. Everything positive has gone. Democracy and freedom killed every positive seed of hope inside our hearts. I hate Bush, I hate Blair, I hate all the American administration. They destroyed my country. They let thugs and thieves rule it.
You American and British people are also to blame for this mess. It is your silence and your support to these two criminals who once supported Saddam. Wake up and move from your chairs and sofas. Do something. Help my country which your countries destroyed. Try to do something before it is too late, if it is not too late.
Alas !!!!
"democracy," as it was intended to be.
ReplyDeletebritish people were always overwhelmingly against this, they only voted for blair cause the other guy would have been even worse. at least half of americans were against this war or tried to stop it before it started. i tried too, my country only backed out last minute because they decided they wanted to be in afghanistan instead.
but i'm really, really sorry.
but too much anger is devoted to the bush admin. not enough to democrats that followed along because they didn't want to cause trouble when the majority of them knew much much better. to journalists who wouldn't ask a single hard question to probably the most corrupt regime they've ever seen untill it was years too late. in addition to neocons and shitstains like karl rove that manipulate people's ignorance and war profiteers and exiles only looking out for themselves.
ReplyDeleteNadia,
ReplyDeleteGood points...
I believe we should have been able to vote in a one off subject
No - we don't go to war
Yes - we go to war
When we went for our own parliment in Scotland, we held votes for this single event
Poll tax was the same.. that was forced on us, rather than getting the opinion of the public
This killed Thatchers Government in the same way the Gulf has destroyed this one
When it comes to important subjects where the British public have a right to choose, we should hold one off voting
In this day and age it surely wouldn't be difficult to organise
Like last weeks vote, where the Houses of Parliment were allowed to vote for an Inquiry, a pathetic 3 hours was put aside to debate, and my guess is a 'no' vote only came about because had the majority party (Labour) lost, they would soon be out on their ear and out of a job
Yes Nadia, wasn't the 'other guy' we wouldn't vote for now the Shadow defence secretary? And thats the party that is more than liley to get in next time
Oh well, the wheels on the bus go round and round
Its been an odd week.. one tyrant get sentenced to death one day, and on another day one gets to resign, and gets a healthy pension for good measure
Sunday was rememberance day
4 UK troops get blown up 3 hours after remembering our war hero's at a service in Basra
I suppose my posts are so strongly worded now (and have been for 3 years) because anyone who tries to justify what has gone on over in Iraq just gets up my nose I'm frustrated, I'm pissed off, yet I'm in paradise compared to my fellow human being in Iraq
Nadia, I'm sure apologies aren't required
As I say to my kids, 'sorry' means you are too late
Nothing me or you, even if we had scaled Whitehall, could have done nothing about it
Manners and friendships cost nothing, and I know in my heart, the Iraqi's I have spoken to respect us for speaking our minds
Which doesn't always mean they agree with us, now that really is what the democtatic way should be !
Kind regards
Steve
i'm sorry that this is happening, is all i meant. that my expectations for how bad the outcome would be were surpassed. i'm sorry that so many people are living through this.
ReplyDeletei'm not sorry becuse i believe i'm responsible. if i were in any kind of position of power where my opinions mattered i would have done more, but i was not so i protested and wrote my mp and argued a lot.
It didn't help Iraq but I just want you to know that in Britain thousands of people held protest marches against the invasion of Iraq and wrote to their MPs (that's all that ordinary people can do); the Foreign Office and the top people in the armed services tried to have their expert advice (not to invade) heard by Tony Blair; and several newspapers have consistently excoriated the Government's foreign policy.
ReplyDeleteIn a democracy, that should have been enough to make Tony Blair think twice, three times, hold back, change course. But Tony Blair is of dictator-mentality; he decided to invent the evidence (the "dodgy dossiers"), lie to Parliament about the non-existent WMDs, and harness the UK to the US fascists. Thanks to those two war criminals, this is where we are now.
I wrote to my MP. I also complained to the highest level about the Under Mars web site. In my own church, I have led public prayers for the innocent people of Iraq, mentioning especially the Iraqi bloggers. I am sorry that we have had a sociopath as PM: we have all been deceived and betrayed but none so much as the Iraqi people.
Nadia
ReplyDeleteMy local MP is no other than Sir Menzies Campbell, I asked him directly why he would not, as leader of the liberal democrats state that the War in Iraq was illegal and Blair was nothing less than a war criminal...
Again, I'm not pacified when I hear that Blair got wrong intelligence and was led to believe that Iraq had WMD.
I still want an answer to what is the definition of a WMD, how many people must a thing be that kills a human be before its classed as a WMD? - strange question, but a man ties explosives to himself kills about 50, is this classed as a weapon of mass destruction...
Please someone tell me the true definition?
Regards
I'd like to add that I, and many many others in this country, will be keeping up the pressure - eg to make reparations to Iraq. At the moment, there is no one trustworthy to make reparations to: the current Iraqi administration is a creature of the US, and I don't trust them to use international assistance for the people of Iraq.
ReplyDeleteInteresting article on a news release...
ReplyDeleteRumsfeld set to be investigated
Civil rights activists say they will file a suit asking German prosecutors to investigate former US secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld and a host of other officials on claims of war crimes for their alleged roles in abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay.
The 220-page suit is being filed by US and German lawyers under a German law that allows the prosecution of war crimes regardless of where they were committed. It claims Rumsfeld personally ordered and condoned torture.
"One of the goals has been to say a torturer is someone who cannot be given a safe haven,'' said Michael Ratner, the president of New York's Centre for Constitutional Rights, which is behind the litigation.
"It sends a strong message that this is not acceptable.''
Donald Rumsfeld resigned his position last week
HOO BLOODY RAY.....
Bush and Blair next....
It would be good if it was an Iraqi who brought the case against these politicians, to see them banged to rights, maybe (and its a long shot) it may be seen by the insuregents and rival gangs etc as some form of victory and the fighting and terror may ease
There again santa clause may actually exist....
Regards
Steve
Hello BT. I share your feelings about this sad event. And the sadiest thing is that the government forces were mere bystanders in this case, which makes we think that maybe, as you said, the "killing field" strategy is being part of the present government agenda.
ReplyDelete[BT] "Wake up and move from your chairs and sofas. Do something. Help my country which your countries destroyed. Try to do something before it is too late, if it is not too late."
Well, I don't think they are going to do anything. Of course a few do their share, but the majority will take the easy way and say that Bush is the only responsible for the war. Isn't it what democrats say today, even if they supported Bush when the war began? In addition, Americans will say that they did they part electing the democrats. I don't think they will get more involved than that. Bush is now considered a loser and most americans want to be far away from him. Did you see that recently Oprah put the Dixie Chicks in her precious show? She would never do that a year ago...
But let's suppose that a miracle happens and the britishers and americans go in mass to the streets to demand a solution to their governments. What should they demand? A massive war effort to put soldiers in every iraqi street? An imediate evacuation? Anything different?
Its still unclear to me as to why Blair supported and followed Bush and the neocons so steadfastly down the rathole that Iraq has now officially become. I mean we all know Bush is an abject moron, however it always seemed that Blair was actually quite intelligent. Puzzling really.
ReplyDeletewww.minor-ripper.blogspot.com
i'm so sad...i feel that all my dreams fade away..i have no future, i can't finish my studies in baghdad univercity..
ReplyDeleteall the students here lost hope!!
The Ripper
ReplyDeletevery well put, Blair had a chance of being a legend of a PM, the government have done excellent on home policies on the whole
However on foreign issues, this is what he'll be remembered for
I think we (UK and USA) have been excellent allies for many a year, but like blogging, we don't have to agree with what our pals say
I'm really pissed off for ToB today, I think we all realise that today is significant in so many ways, it must be like having a knife put in your back and slowly turned on a daily basis
Kind regards
Steve
I got off my couch a long time ago. Writing my Senators, going on Protest Marches, supporting the Peace Movement, standing with Mothers in Black every Friday in every weather with protest signs. Yet, I feel so helpless.Tell me what else can we do?
ReplyDeleteAt least the people in the past election made their voices heard loud.
It's a ray of hope.
The killing has to stop!!
C-M
What happened bisbis?
ReplyDeleteWhen I heard the news, I stopped functioning. I wanted to stop breathing. I just didn’t want to continue living!
What is going on? Why are we doing this to ourselves?
Help. Help. Help. Anyone?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteTreasure,
ReplyDeleteWhat should we have done? I guess we could have declared Iraq the 51st state and moved Arnold Schwarzenegger from California to Iraq. Somehow, I doubt Iraqis would have accepted this solution. No, you guys had to have quick elections, and so we did! Iraqis then voted for a bunch of Islamist parties. Now you want us to overturn the results of the election?
"Democracy and freedom killed every positive seed of hope inside our hearts." No, a bunch of evil Saddamists, Al Quaeda members, extremist Shiites, and extremist Sunnis, ordinary thugs and violent criminals, and awful politicians killed your hope.
(Oh, I should have added Iran and Syria to that list of people that killed your hopes.)
ReplyDeleteBT, I am having some hopeless feelings too about the kidnapping of the 150 educational workers. I have watched the news about it this evening, and I am very worried about these people! The news said that a few of the kidnapped people were released, but I don't know what that means. I hope they will all be released, but sadly, I fear the worst. This incident is profoundly troubling! The kidnappers apparently had the official hard to copy uniforms issued to Iraqi police. I am afraid that this can only mean government involvement at the highest levels. You are right, Maliki should resign! He has done nothing to stop this horrible sectarian violence! I just wish there was someone who could stop it.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame you for being angry. You have every right to be angry, but please try to keep in mind that some people in America do care, and they do want a better future for all Iraqi people.
Treasure,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry for the tone of my previous comment. I do not mean at all to minimize the harm or suffering you and the Iraqi people have seen. I just don't like being blamed for what is clearly not of our doing.
[Original_Jeff]"No, you guys had to have quick elections, and so we did! Iraqis then voted for a bunch of Islamist parties."
ReplyDeleteFantastic, Original_Jeff got it!! All this mess is because the iraqis are idiots, they voted wrong in the elections the americans generously promoted.
[Original_Jeff] "Now you want us to overturn the results of the election?"
Why not? Why to prolong the carnage? Aren't they "a bunch of Islamist parties"? What makes them different of Saddam and his gang? The solution is simple and easy: take the soldiers, put this iraqi administration in prison and make new elections. If the iraqis choose wrong again, repeat the process until the iraqis vote right.
All of the hostages seized in a raid by gunmen on a Baghdad higher education facility have been released, Iraqi officials say. BBC
ReplyDeleteVietnam
The Internet is not very widespread and remains under the control of the ruling Communist Party. Cyber-dissidents are arrested, politically and culturally "incorrect" websites are blocked and personal e-mail is monitored. The government seems to be closely following China’s example.
Reporters sans frontières
Well, perhaps Vietnam did get better, they do not kill journalists, so one may say Vietnamese got freedom they wanted.
Well, they need the children to fight their bloody wars. So that the old men can sit and enjoy their ill gotten power (to trouble people).
ReplyDeleteBut don't you worry, like in Afghanistan and refugee camps in Pakistan, you will soon have education in the Madrasas that will raise Talibs or students who will get the education, Iraq missed.
Don't forget to thank Bush.
Another day another dollar
ReplyDeleteThe hostages have been released, but news is scarce at the moment.. I switched on my TV at 3am this morning when I awoke in the middle of the night and to my relief I saw that 'the majority (?)' but 5 senior police officers had been arrested
It was quite a long piece
Imagine my suprise when I got up at 7am and it was barely mentioned
News was rife about the queens speech today
Festive spending on Christmas presents will hit an all-time high this year - and bling is king.Shoppers will spend a wallet-thumping £378 on average, over a fifth more than last Christmas
A sentence about another 4 USA troops killed in Iraq was an alert
A family of 4 had been murdered in Newcastle
A supermarkets profits were up 123% over the last 4 months
Reports that Belfast and Beruit are 'must see' destinations in 2007
A bank is going to charge £10 a month fee even if you're in credit
Naomi Campbell must show up in court today or face arrest over allegations she threw a mobile phone at her housekeeper's head.The British supermodel failed to attend a hearing at Manhattan Criminal Court in September
And babies born before 22 weeks should not be resusitated
then at 7:30 am it was the weather
Who the heck edits these propaganda shows, do they think we have had as much as we can suffer.
Anyway, back to the issue in question... I have absolutly no idea why the police are seemingly appearing to be involved in mass kidnappings.
Are they trying to give the puppet government a bloody nose...
My next post is going to offer some solution, I hope this can be a healthy, non confrentational debate with some logical suggestions coming from my ideas
Kind regards
Steve
A draft solution???
ReplyDeleteA plan has to be drafted up soon to withdraw the Americans and UK troops
I have 2 takes. I mentioned some time ago I thought the answer had to be an Arab rescue force.
Do you mix and mangle Jordon, Iranian, Syrian troops/ peace keeping force and throw the turks up into Kurdistan - not really heard much about the Kurds
Do you allow Iranian troops to help Basra?
Syrian/ Jordon, maybe even Pakistani, Indian, Qatar, Saudi's Kuwatis en mass to the Baghdad and other really volitile areas (and others)
And as I mentioned it makes sense (well to me) to get the Turks to help with the Kurds
Surely this has to be more acceptable than the hell your everyday Iraqi is suffering under the present climate
I would disband the Iraqi government with immidiate effect
Who would I replace them with ??...
Every Arab leader in the region, + 2 chosen government officials of their choice
This would allow some form of emergency constitution to be drafted, and plans put in place to get the Iraqi nation back on track
This Governemnt would be allowed to have a say how money is spent rebuilding Iraq
The USA and UK should pledge the money they are saving from not having troops in Iraq for the next 3 years to these leaders to spend rebuilding it
The rebuilding should be done by companies in the region, be debated by an economic committee of leading business leader in the Arab region
The United Nations should also keep their nose out
As I have mentioned, this is probably going to stir some interesting comments, well I hope it does, because I cannot see any other solution
I'm merely a dyslexic entrepreneur, self employed chap in Scotland attached to NO political party
If I were to be in a political party, it needs to be invented as my views are tending to be somewhere inbetween Liberal and Socialist !
Saad, Treasure, Annie, Bruno, Nadia, Indigo, Michomeme (and sister)and the other good debating types who follow this blog... I'll be interested how you view my thoughts
Its a last resort as I mentioned, but this situation has to be taken by someone, by the testicals and this is the best I can come up with
Kind regards
Steve
p.s
ReplyDeleteAnd ask Sir Richard Branson to be the Chairman of any said Business/ Commercial committee
If there was a man on planet Earth who could achieve the unachievable - It is he
BBC Radio 4 "Today" programme interviewed an Iraqi woman caught up in yesterday's mass kidnapping. She seems to say, towards the end of the interview, that the US forces should leave because they are protecting those who perpetrate atrocities. (Certainly, many of us wonder why no one is prosecuted for the bombings and kidnappings and murders.)
ReplyDelete08:26 We speak to an Iraqi woman in the Education building at the time of yesterday's mass kidnapping.
Also posted on Healing Iraq and Nabil's blog.
Indigo
ReplyDeletecheers for that info...
The only way you can get rid of the troops is by having a cunning plan to replace it, there again... can things get any worse, if they just all jumped on an aircraft today, and left Iraq what the heck would happen tomorrow and the following weeks?
Here lies the problem?
Kind regards
Steve
Dear treasure,
ReplyDeleteThat is horrible, and I was so touched with Zeyad's story the most besides the others...
God be with Iraqis!
Peace
Treasure I get the feeling that most of us who comment and are on the net reading these blogs are not as powerful as those who aren't reading, and commenting. Myself included. what happened along the way.
ReplyDeleteEdo River rising
BT – I also read this story with alarm. The numbers of people involved are not peanuts. There are big players involved here with big connections. A 50 car convoy sauntering through the Baghdad Crackdown chock full of prisoners and nobody sees anything? Riiight. I really, really hope that this is not the beginning of the end for Iraq.
ReplyDelete[jeff] " Democracy and freedom killed every positive seed of hope inside our hearts." No, a bunch of evil Saddamists, Al Quaeda members, extremist Shiites, and extremist Sunnis, ordinary thugs and violent criminals, and awful politicians killed your hope. (Oh, I should have added Iran and Syria to that list of people that killed your hopes.) ”
Nice.
I like the way you blame everybody except for the country that actually STARTED this mess. You know, the one that opened up Iraq to Al Qaeda and said it would like to fight its war with AQ there?
Come, you MUST know who I’m talking about … the country that flew in the extremists to Nasiriyah as the FIFF but unfortunately the FIFF were actually Badrists?
You don’t remember this country? The one that imported the awful politicians like Chalabi and allowed others, like Hakim and the Kurdish warlords to fight over the carcass of Iraq?
Shucks, your memory is short if you don’t remember the country that recruited the evil Saddamist Mokhabarat members into the new Iraqi security apparatus, people like Adnan Thabit.
No, I guess in Jeff’s world, there is NO elephant in the living room.
Steve, the kurds don't really need to be rescued. They're doing pretty well, actually. A story just below the kidnapping one is on the Kurds advertising campaign to attract western investment ("The Other Iraq" here). Also, they don't really get along with the Turks because Kurds in Turkey have separationist hopes too.
ReplyDeleteBT I share your feelings. On top of it these last two weeks I have been utterly upset and angry for what I have found out. Sweden have been selling weapons to the US army in Iraq since the begging of the war.
ReplyDeleteThis is by the Swedish government who went out and said that the war was illegal we don’t support it.
Yet they on TV in a documentary about export of Swedish weapons they admit selling weapons without any reflection that THEY/WE have broken Swedish law. The Swedish law says that we should not sell weapons to counties in armed conflict. Secondly they lied to all the Swedish people when they say they don’t support the war. Because selling weapons to one part in a war is a clear sing you support that side. And on top of it when I and others have been in contact with organisations to take legal action against the government we learned that they have tried so many times but they have never been successful. Even police investigations have been closed down. They are all in it BT the western world are all in it to destroy Iraq. Remember Germany said it was against the war? Afterwards it came out they had spies in Iraq telling the US were to bomb. I am so mad that I wish I could kidnap all these politicians and weapon managers to Iraq and then let a bomb explode on them and then go out and say “sorry we made a mistake, who knows maybe a technical mistake. We will do an internal investigation”. Damn then all. The western democracies are not better then dictatorship – they are worse. These democratic leaders have gotten experts on manipulating the masses, expert on lying and since the west is the strong power in the world who can stop them. NONE.
Steve, the kurds don't really need to be rescued. They're doing pretty well, actually. A story just below the kidnapping one is on the Kurds advertising campaign to attract western investment ("The Other Iraq" here). Also, they don't really get along with the Turks because Kurds in Turkey have separationist hopes too.
ReplyDeletei actually just read a report from irin that mentioned some 90,000 kurds are fleeing mosul. though you're right, relative to the rest of iraq they are better off but that's not saying a lot. they are certainly reaping from the instability economically, but that's not spreading to everyone, as evidenced by the halabja riots.
if iraq was split up and kurdistan became autonomous you'd better believe turkey would get involved.
Nadia
ReplyDeleteHave you forgotten what TAI wrote long ago about Mosul, Mosul is not kurdish. Mosul also is not in Kurdistan' administrative area. So it is not surprising that kurds are fleeing Mosul.
ps. Kurds view Mosul as their (kurdish) city however after arabisation of Mosul they are minority there.
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing, turkey may try to get involved in kurdistan, it already is to some extend. But so is Iran in the south and KSA in other areas.
yes mosul is a mixed city ethnically and religiously what's your point? kurds still live there and large numbers are leaving. their militias and gov't also aren't so great to the arabs and turkomen either, as far as i've read.
ReplyDeleteit depends what you mean by involved. i've read about some bombings already. turkey by far is the most hostile to kurdish autonomy regardless(as they are to their own kurdish population), that's for sure.
Nadia, from what I remember of the news "we" told them where not to bomb. Call "us" stupid if you like...
ReplyDeleteSteve, I don't agree with much of the rest of what Ella wrote in answer to you but Turkish troops in Kurdistan would indeed be a mistake. They want to go and hunt for PKK cells over there anyway. I'm not informed enought to know about civilian casualties in such cases, but I wouldn't dare to officially invite them in.
Melantrys, Nadia, Ella, RhusLancia
ReplyDeleteThanks for carrying out this debate, and in some cases answering my questions....
I'm sure those that know the tensions can place peace keeping arabic troops in the areas/ regions so as to not stir up a lot more trouble
For example, you wouldnt exactly send an Israeli preace keeping force over there (thats the obvious one!)
I suppose if over in the UK we had some problems and Scotland needed protecting, the last people they would want to help is the English !
I'm sure there is a forumlae, and Iraq can be split into regions
I know Baghdad Treasure is down in the dumps having chatted to him earlier. I think I can speak for the majority who read his blog and send our thoughts and prayers to him, his family and his friends
Keep your chin up Treasure, you and your friends are the future of Iraq
Kind regards
Steve
Nadia, from what I remember of the news "we" told them where not to bomb. Call "us" stupid if you like...
ReplyDeletehuh? sorry i'm really confused about what you're referring to. and who the "we" is in this case.
for the record though i think partitioning would be a terrible idea and would do next to nothing to help alleviate the situation at hand, if it doesn't make violence worse. if that's what's being debated. i'm not totally sure anymore.
nadia n that comment was meant to me ;)
ReplyDelete"for the record though i think partitioning would be a terrible idea"
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Nadia N.
I mean if I go into a house and stir up a fight between me and the wife in their then see to it the husband and wife start arguing too. Does that give me the right to demand them to divorce each other? The best idea would be for me to leave the house and let them sort things out themselves.
I hate it when US politicians talk about breaking up Iraq. Under which democratic law do they think that they are representing the Iraqi people? Which Iraqis elected them to decide what happens with Iraq? NONE. So how come they talk about Iraq as if it was their piece of land they just bought and did not like so geee lets break it up. Please tell them YOU ARE NOT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE.
BT,
ReplyDeleteI've been trying to get my news from as many sources as possible these days and at first I thought there was a misprint in one of the sources... that was until I saw said misprint in multiple sources (though ignored in others). That was that, based on interviews with those who were there, it was people in official Iraqi police uniforms who committed the kidnapping. Then, it was the Iraqi police who claimed to have secured the release of "most" of those who had been taken, with Malaki trying to grab all the credit himself.
BT, on behalf of those who cannot or will not accept responsibility for this horrible state of affairs, I would like to sincerely apologize. You know as well as I that they are in a difficult position of having to come to terms with a heinous crime against humanity and a constant barrage of sources telling them that it isn't their fault. I think that it should be fairly obvious to a rational observer that the horrendous state of Iraq is a direct result of the US invasion and occupation (and the US/UK run sanctions regime before that, and US/UK support for Hussein before that), but for many this concept is a difficult one to confront. I think it's sad that, while all political representatives in America argue about the best strategy for the United States regarding Iraq, it is seldom discussed what is in the best interests of Iraqis.
I wish I could say I was surprised that, as a horrendous civil war takes root, education would be one of the first targets. The less educated people are, the more likely they are to be succeptable to propaganda from one side or another; and those that have gained power through these sectarian militias naturally want to see their power base increase.
I wish I could proffer some hope-inspiring statement for you, but my words fail me.
As always, take care of yourself BT, and I hope your family and friends stay safe. I hope Amman welcomes you.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read your proposal I thought it would be ironic if the middle eastern dictatorships sent forces to rescue Iraq from "democracy" since the coalition overthrew Saddam to rescue Iraqis from a middle eastern dictatorship! But it has some merit- that is, if Arab countries would commit forces to help the situation. As it is, two of Iraq's neighbors (Iran and Syria) are already "helping" the cause as they see it- which doesn't seem to be helping the regular Iraqis much.
Treasure of Baghdad,
ReplyDeleteHere is my honest assessment: This level of killings will stop in a foreseeable future (for whatever reasons but it'll stop).
Relative stability will be established, under tough authoritarian leadership (which would be portrayed as "democratic" in the West for the Western public consumption [that is, pathetic self-deceivers like RhusLancia and Original_Jeff] on the grounds that there are "elections").
Some normalcy of life will return.
NO real liberal democracy with meaningful political parties, peaceful change of government due to FREE and FAIR elections, and legally guaranteed and practically enforced protections of human rights and dignity will exist in Iraq EVER in your lifetime.
The brain drain that is occurring right now will throw your country years back. Majority of professionals who will find jobs in the West will not return to Iraq even after it is stabilized.
The politicians will be mainly self-interested "ambitious" people who will encourage and thrive on corruption. There will be no real statesmen who will have a sense of mission to work, live, and die for their country, and not for their Swiss accounts.
Iraq will become, in the best case, something it was under Saddam, minus the purity and naivete of the ordinary Iraqis, minus the capability for development that only the feared dictator with some modernizing tendencies could have, plus the facade of "democracy" that will totally discredit that wonderful concept in the eyes of the people (and is doing it right now), plus the long-standing pain and the completely justified sense of victimhood that the wholesale-raped population will carry on for decades...
But it WILL stabilize sooner rather than later (no matter one Iraq or several of them), and people will NOT be wantonly killed any more. And that is better than what is going on now.
In about 2 years.
artashes is probably right. Not about the personal slams, but Iraq will surely stabilize. Even Cambodia did. The questions are when and how. Authoritarianism and tyrany are the "easiest" ways to run a country, but simply "voting" doesn't fool us into believing democracy exists. Iraqis "voted" for Saddam, and Iran had its own elections, but I can't deceive myself into thinking that is democracy. Maybe a better example is the Palestinians, who had a free and fair election and voted Hamas into power.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, I have a real, genuine idea for how I think Iraq could move forward. I belive this is realistic and could be implemented with all of the players as they are, and with conditions as they are.
The plan is this: announce another election for December '07. Change the constitution or whatever to have elections every two years for a period of time- a decade for example- while Iraq transitions and then go back to four years. No, don't flush the elected gov't and don't hang them either, let them even run for re-election in '07. Let all the parties run: SCIRI, Dawa, AMS, the lot. I believe Iraqis were truly happy to vote, so if they are unhappy with the gov't let them try again, and let the incumbents serve their constiuents or let their successors try. This is one way to find the statesmen that you need. Maybe some day the AIB (Association of Iraqi Bloggers) could field some candidates and sweep!
The situation in Iraq can get worse overnight (as we've seen over and over) but it likely won't get better overnight. Any more radical upheavals will just bring more dire consequences. But stepping up Iraq's political evolution in a positive way could actually help things some. Maybe?
nadia n
ReplyDeleteMy point about Kurds fleeing Mosul was that if that was kurdish city under kurdish control they would not flee it.
Regarding turkomans and arabs in kurdistan, they are treated better than kurds in iraq proper.
You are writing about Halabja rioting in March, but later there were some peaceful demonstration about jobs and electricity where no people were arrested. what's more the same author who in Kurdish Media wrote about rioting later wrote I was happy to see tonight a discussion on the BBC's Newsnight programme that considered the possibility of the break-up of the Iraqi state as a possible solution for the very first time.
Kurdistan is evidently not a ideal country, many things should be changed before it can be compared politically and economically to western european countries but there was much improvement from the time when PUK and KDP peshmerga killed each other. At least now they try, albeit reluctantly, to work with each other.
However I do think that neither Iran nor Turkey will allow creation of independent Kurdistan and USA in current political situation will not support creation of such independent state.
Melantrys
Casualties in Turkey among Kurds were quite high couple of years ago. Because majority of journalists had turkish minders they were not allowed to go freely in the region so the informations were and are scarce . Often there were atrocities were committed from both sides, PKK killed kurds (village guards) who helped government , turkish military in return killed all civilians regardless of whether they supported PKK or not. About 3000 kurdish villages were destroyed during that time, estimation of casualties vary from 20,000 to more than 40,000 and official turkish data talks about 380000 displaced people . Now, the region where there are majority of Kurds is underdeveloped and Turkish government keeps it underdeveloped, kurds till couple of years ago could not speak their own language and were imprisoned for using it. Situation got a little bit better with pressure from EU, however the difference in education and job-creation between Turkey proper and the kurdish region are quite large. Kurds in Iraq do support PKK, that, I think is natural, similar to support of arab majority for palestine people. PKK recently do not act militarily against turkish government, nevertheless because situation improves very slowly in the kurdish region there are people who wants to fight the way palestinians are fighting. That's what caused recent terrorist acts.
As for the future of Iraq I tend to agree with RusLancia.
pls read:
ReplyDelete"often there were atrocities committed" i/o "often there were atrocities were committed"
sorry for mistake.
ella
ReplyDeletei don't deny that people were rioting may want independence, i think most kurds do, just pointing out that it can be extremely problematic and cause dischord as opposed to quell it, and you're aware of the events of the 90s there so i won't go into it. more problematic is that there's no perfect ethnic sectarian lines, and creating those borders, no matter how they're drawn are still leaving large numbers of people extremely vulnerable. this has been done with syria when it was carved up, this was done was lebanon was carved out, and now they're saying even lebanon is not cohesive. or look at the mess following the partition of india. what happens if fighting continues, do we give the mahdi and badr each their own state? i just don't think it's practical at all.
anyways i'm not sure why i went into all this we seem to basically agree. at least i think we do.
[nadia] “Sweden have been selling weapons to the US army in Iraq since the begging of the war.”
ReplyDeleteMmm. What a surprise. South Africa is officially against the invasion of Iraq, yet we have companies here building mine-proof vehicles for the US Army specifically for use in Iraq. Well, at least it seems that they intend on clamping down on SA mercenaries there. It seems that $$$ is more important than integrity, wherever you go.
Steve –
The Turk-Kurd idea? NOT good. The Kurds are bearing up OK on their own.
Arabs from neighbouring states? I also have my doubts. They have too many conflicts of interest.
[steve] “I would disband the Iraqi government with immidiate effect”
Yes.
My solution would be to start putting together popular councils, like town councils, for distinct areas such as neighbourhoods and districts. Once those representatives are sorted out, they can be amalgamated into larger and larger structures. From the BOTTOM UP is the only way. Security teams on a District basis make a lot more sense than on a sectarian basis to me. Problem districts that are under attack / attacking others need to be sealed off and isolated, until the attacks die down. Of course, this begs the question as to who would do the task if the US left. There’s no easy answer. And, since such a policy would result in the de facto empowerment of the Iraqi people, who want the US OUT, I can’t really see the US implementing a policy that is detrimental to its own interests.
Bruno I hope we meet some day.
ReplyDeleteNadia n
ReplyDeleteThe sectarian lines are there. They have been there all along, in Jordan where people who came in the last 20 years from palestine do have different views from the people who came there before them. In Syria where allawite government do not give Kurds syrian citizenship. In lebanon where civil war flared due to influx of palestinians and later instability was due to intrigues of their neighbours and co-religionists. In turkey where for many years Kurds were called "mountain turks" and prohibited to talk in their language. Even in KSA there is a division between different muslim believers (see shiat in some of the oil provinces)
These sectarian lines have been there even before coming of europeans and were felt even during Ottoman empire.
So they have to be acknowledged, dealt with and not swept under the carpet.
And yes, I think we do basically agree with each other, giving badrists and sadrists their own state is really a bad idea. But certain amount of autonomy would not be so bad.
Bruno
After some thoughts (yes, I do sometimes think ;-))I agree with you that idea of arab and iranian neighbours having a larger say in the governance of Iraq is damn stupid. They already have too much of an influence there.
That said, must you always see what americans are doing as bad, something in a way of "evil empire of the west"? Americans want to get out of Iraq and they are seeking solution to get out and leave Iraq as a stable country. I don't see your proposal in complete opposition to american/western interests.
ella i think you misunderstood me.
ReplyDeleteby sectarian lines i meant there's so perfect boundaries to be drawn for ethnic/sectarian groups in iraq and many other places hence the stupidity of balkanization that i just think is an ugly can of worms that would cause a lot of problems.
Well ladies
ReplyDeleteWould Iraq rather have more American troops for company, or some people who actually understand the culture?
The more I think about it the more it makes sense
Its the only answer, unless you want the troops to withdraw and then watch it turn into total carnage?
Do you think that the way things stand that without some Arab involvement that its going to just sort itself out?
Reality check time
I understand the Kurd/ Turkish argument, but if Iraq was offered some help from its neighbours you see this as negative compared to ??
Kind regards
Steve
Treasure- I can not begin to feel your grief. These killings by all means needs to be stopped I am sure that all agree. I am baffled to who is the main focus of your blame, though. If some one killed my son, I do not think that I would blame the police (or the government) I would want the murderer to be held under the light of justice. My desire for revenge would be upon them not the police.Do not mis understand me I would be supremely upset with the police for not bring them to a timely justice.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry I am new to blogging and i do not have a web address and I don't think giving out my email address would be the best thing.
I would love to see what you belive the solution to be. How do we move on from where we are.
And surely BUSH,and you newly elected representatives are not ALL of the problem.( I think that the kidnappers have some share like 60/40)
Who ever did these attrocites I am sure their aim is how you feel right now. That there is no hope. Stop hoping so that you will settle with whatever they decide for you to feel and do.
Your feelings are certainly understandable. But please do not lose hope. May God countenance be upon you, your family and your people.
Sean
steve
ReplyDeletethat's a separate issue. and also i really have no idea.
nadia
Iraqi's have to be the ones to step up and not leave their country.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what are motives are, and they will be self directed, the Iraqi's have to stand up.
It's just how it has to be.
Steve
ReplyDeleteI am against the help/interference of neighbours in Iraq. I can not say I know much about politics in the middle east but in my view neighbours help may only worsen the matters as most neighbours will support their own interests and view Iraq in their own way.
Let's say Iran.......Iran would support shia, but in my view, not all shia but the ones which would most closely support their view of shia faith (i.e Valî-ye Faqîh) and their own policies. KSA would support sunni and will do everything to reduce iran influence in iraq. Syria will support Iran and work against KSA and Jordan. Turkey would probably like to have influence in kurdistan, will try to destroy supporters of PKK and will try to get hold of Kirkuk. It may cooperate with Iran and/or KSA but will probably work to decrease both Iran and KSA influence and will definitely block all syria proposals. Jordan will try to balance KSA and Iran influence but i can guess that it will rather work against Iran, as Jordan government is afraid of nuclear Iran and their influence on palestinians.
Iraq neighbours politics is, of course, much more complicated than that, but I think your proposal may result in a mess.
Truly, I do not know, it is just my feeling.
[ella] "Americans want to get out of Iraq and they are seeking solution to get out and leave Iraq as a stable country. I don't see your proposal in complete opposition to american /western interests."
ReplyDeleteElla, I am a natural cynic of US policy, and the more i learn about it the more cynical I become. The US COULD execute a plan like that, sure. But why should they, if it would lead to an Iraq that is against virtually every policy in the ME that the US considers important? When the original US choice for Iraq, Jay Garner, ran local elections based on city and district municipalities, and then promised free elections in 90 days, he was booted out so fast by the neocons he hardly had time to pack.
The results from these elections were swiftly anulled and Bremer was appointed as an effective dictator.
The US already had a chance to do something similar and it blew it.
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR31.6/rosen.html
ReplyDeleteThis article is both brilliant and tragic. Everybody should read it.
treasure....when our election was stolen from us here in the usa in 2000...the bush years began..i live on the west coast in seattle ...my state is a democratic stronghold...with a woman governor and two very strong women senators...we knew the ''weapons of mass hysteria'' were just that, the administrations means to an unjustifiable ends...as a citizen of the usa, as a citizen of the larger world body,i want you to know that my heart aches and has ached ever since the first bombs were unleashed upon your lande...our democracy has been stolen from us with the patriot act..i pray to god that the innocent that have died have died not in vain...not only your peoples,but all of the military that have been decieved in this fraud, from all the countries that have been brought into this great travesty...personally, i hold in my heart all of us..these are very dangerous times...perhaps iran will be next. not to forget the plight of the palestinian peoples...there is much suffering outside of ROME....i write this as a brother in conscience....steelorr@hotmail.com
ReplyDeleteThe United States is a constitutional republic ...
ReplyDeleteThe Democracy comes from the elections for Congress and the President ... and then from those
people voting
Bush was in office less 8 months
before 9/11 ... when the Mideast
came up as a topic he spoke only
of making a commitment for the
new Palestinian State ...
The wise ass Bin-Laden chooses
to start trouble ...
The Bush administration had every right to begin a policy which would over time lead to eliminating
terrorists threats against the USA
Thats their job ... they made a descision to remove Saddam as part
of this policy ... the fact
that Saddams men choose to target
Shia Civilian targets ... and the Shia retaliate by attacking primarily Sunni civilian targets
is a result of deep divisions
in Iraqi society and culture
which were held in check by Saddams
regime ... these endless retaliatory attacks against innocents has nothing to do with
Bush or Blair or Karl Rove or
Americans at Abu-Ghraib or Haditha
This horrific violence is based
on Iraqi history and is much much
deeper then any Western involvement
The sooner the clerics and the political leaders and the masses of Iraqi realize this and face the reality the sooner a solution
can come to be